Recent retip(canti also) Dude where did my soundstage width go

Let it run to at least 30 hours and a micro ridge tip requires more attention to setup.

Are you certain the setup is correct?

I believe that stylus type  reqires extremely precise setup.

What protractor did you use?

I used a Mint Best protractor - very spacious image 

There are several other "mirror-type" protractors out there that will do the job just as well.

Hope that helps  

If your setup is right, and that will change as the cart breaks in, you might want to get the Cardas album with the burn in groove and let the cart break in without having to endure the pain of listening to it, nothing is more painful as breaking in a cart, tube amps or dacs, I would rather take a beating. Yes the Soundsmith rebuilds do require a breakin. Plus the Cardas album also has  several tracks that degauss your complete system.

Azimuth? Azimuth affects channel separation.

Hey Thanks ya'll. I'm still learning about set up and how precise it needs to be. I'm using a Feikert and a Fozgometer. I was getting strange readings with insane azimuth adjustments that were clearly not right. I realized then how sensitive the alignment of cantilever needs to be.n That was a revelation. The lines on the Feikert are decent but when your talking about movements the width of a silk thread or smaller it's little better than ballpark. It was using the Foz that strangely caused me to question alignment with the initial absurd readings.  Sensitive and great tool. It's probably still not as good as it can be. I've gone through set up it twice now and I'm done for now. Channel balance/azimuth is within a couple ticks on the Foz. I look forward to getting the Mint. Still the issue remains with the width. I'll continue letting it break in. It's a tortuous but interesting process. My toe is tapping though a bit more now. It's really recording dependent. My Grado really made almost everything sound good with a big old soundstage although it glossed over some detail Im finding out. 

It will never sound the same. Honestly I just don't get the act of changing out the cantilever and stylus to something else. Once the cartridge wears out, replace it with another one, unless it has a replaceable stylus.

If one can afford expensive toys to play with the first time, they should be able to afford a replacement no questions asked. 

Well, your assuming I can't or that just because somebody goes the route I have they can't. Thats quite a leap. I like to tweak what I have getting the most out I can and this goes for other things in life also. Not to knock anybody else's consumer consumption.  I really like my cart and if this baby doesn't open up more I will replace it with exactly the same one and chock it up to a valuable learning experience. Peace out invictus.

fourwinds,  Just to clarify, azimuth is NOT about channel balance.  It is about crosstalk, the degree to which L channel information leaks into the R channel, and vice-versa.  This phenomenon has a lot to do with the illusion of stage width that the system can convey.  I've never owned nor played with the Foz, but it does seem that many end users use it incorrectly (either that or many units are faulty) so as to end up with inaccurate azimuth adjustment and therefore poor crosstalk characteristics, which leads to a narrow sound stage.  I have read, for one thing, that the battery in the Foz needs to be kept fresh at all times, for accurate readings.  But if the Foz is telling you that your azimuth has to be tilted way off of top dead center (top surface of cartridge or headshell at a 90 degree angle to the LP surface), then I suspect it's readout is not trustworthy.

Just for fun, you might try setting your azimuth to 90 degrees empirically (see above), ignoring the Foz.  Then have a listen.

By the way, radical changes in azimuth have little effect on channel balance and adjusting azimuth is not the way to "fix" channel imbalance.

Setup may be your problem.

I have read that it is not correct to equalize crosstalk, especially for premium cartridges. If memory serves, SoundSmith writes most convincingly of this. I set up optically, then use a well modulated (loud) NM record that distorts on one channel, and adjust until the distortion goes away. Then I listen for distortion on the other channell.

I also get precise about mounting torque. I use a German torque screwdriver. 

Lewm, thanks for the heads up on a difference between crosstalk and channel imbalance. I did eventually do just as you suggested and set cart by eye and used the Foz to get left and right readings off the test record as close as I could before the tedium wore through me. I achieved it by aligning cartridge in head shell with the lines of the Feikert and then checking with Foz output readings. This not the way it's supposed to be used but it makes sense that if the cantilever is not dead on there will be a channel imbalance or is it crosstalk, I'm not clear on that. I concur on the battery needing to be fresh it makes a difference. 

At this moment I do hear a change in regards to stage width especially when I turn it up. I was wondering if stylus profile is behind the wider presentation of my Grado. Anyhoo all is now much more clear above where I would usually stop on the volume knob. This is really allowing the music to fill up my space. Is the crosstalk right - I've long thought my room played a role in a perceived imbalance. Maybe it's been cross talk and an improperly aligned cantilever(?) or azimuth. I can say the width is coming and along with it a joy. I'm having to get up way to quick to flip a side or change a record. Good stuff. 

@terry9 
Thanks for your input. 
is is there a correct amount of torque to put on head shell screws? Do you remember where you saw the soundsmith article?

back to the music

@fourwnds 

Yes, there is a correct torque, which is pretty much dependent on your cartridge model. Start at the low end and increase by 0.02Nm to optimize.  I'm taking this from a posting by a Linn engineer, who said something like:
Plastic bodies: about 0.2 Nm
Metal mounts: 0.4 to 0.6.
These seem to be dry figures. I prefer to very lightly lube the nuts - if you are certain they are lubed, it's too much. Just a tiny bit of lubrication makes the whole process smoother and more repeatable, and hence, more accurate. 

For lightly lubed nuts, reduce the torque by 1/3. Thus my own results were: Koetsu RSP 0.32 Nm, and Mayajima Zero (which is all wood) 0.25.

Try the SoundSmith site for the article.

Good luck!

Awesome @terry9. Tightening down the bolts and then loosening just enough so as not to completely throw off what progress toward the goal was really awkward and is what I imagine a zen excercise in composure and patience. Or analog bucket to hell. Anyway enjoying the ride. Can see why streaming is so appealing from this perspective. 

Can an you provide a link or point me in direction toward a site you like for the German screwdriver. Be really nice to have that business of cartridge mounting a bit less haphazardish. 

Will ll look up other on Soundsmith site. Thanks 

fourwnds Can an you provide a link or point me in direction toward a site you like for the German screwdriver.

One choice is here.

@fourwnds 

I prefer Stahlwille tools - what's good enough for Mercedes ... I bought mine direct from Germany, TBS-Aachen tools, just about affordable, considering what's at stake (that is, getting $500 performance from a pricey cartridge).

Terry9, I am not lubing my nuts, no matter how it might benefit the sound.

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, Lew.

@terry9  - Lubing the nuts will reduce chaffing, but I am not sure it will make anything sound better.  Well, courderoys, perhaps.

fourwinds, with regard to your question of 04/06, I am not clear what you actually did.  I had suggested aligning the cartridge for zero azimuth by eye only, ignoring the Foz reading.  You could use a mirror or whatever sort of aid might help in that.  Some people put a small bubble type level on top of the headshell when adjusting for zero azimuth or is it 90 degrees of azimuth?  I hope you know what I mean, top of headshell parallel to the LP surface when viewed from the front.  (My computer changed to italics for no apparent reason here.)

As to whether the Foz is reading cartridge output per channel or crosstalk, I have no idea, since I have never even seen a Foz.  As Terry wrote, there are two schools of thought regarding crosstalk/azimuth.  Some recommend adjusting for equal crosstalk, which means that the amount of R channel signal appearing in the L channel would be the same as the amount of L channel signal appearing in the R channel (measured in negative dB).  Others recommend just minimizing crosstalk.  When you do the latter as a goal, the amount of crosstalk will usually NOT be equal in one channel vs the other.  I don't think there is any right or wrong in that regard.

So, have you set azimuth to 0 or 90 (whatever) without any regard for the Foz, and what did that do to your soundstage width?

You guys are nuts fo sure ; )  lubed or not. Man those torque tools ain't cheap but neither is anything else as I chase the dragon higher. I might just invest in a really nice mission appropriate flat head. I like the idea of a tiny bit of lube. It was difficult getting em sunk and then awkward to loosen and then tighten. I've accepted it in the past but if this enables a little more finesse and control I'm in. What kind @terry9 

Lew, yep I actually did end up setting without regard to the Foz! With that said I'm not sure about the unit. Maybe I'm missing something. Soundstage width was coming along nicely and with the improvements in the finer detail department I'm good with the outcome as it stands. I'm still under 30 hours as well. 

What kind of lube seems to be personal preference.

OK, back to serious. Can't quite believe that I wrote that stuff without realizing where it would lead - must be older than I thought.

The refinement was presented to me after I tapped a backplate made of 7075 aluminum. Apparently I had not removed all of the cutting oil (which is VERY light), and tightening the screws revealed a new level of control. (Gawd - here we go again!) So any light machine oil should do the trick (and again!!!). But just a really tiny amount - try a little cotton wool to remove the excess - you don't want oil on your records.

I was thinking about @lewm mentioned about crosstalk and as I was looking at the pins, thinking that maybe there was something back there that might be the culprit, I noticed the right pin wire had broken through the outer sheath and in I fact noticed a stray little wire. A wire only really observable with a magnifying loop. Not a complete seperate on of the whole thing but maybe that's enough to disrupt everything. Gotta be the culprit right?

Are you looking at one strand of a stranded wire, sticking out from the pin?  That could cause a problem only if it is touching any of the other pins.  If not, just take a fine wire cutter and snip it off. Or fold it so it cannot possibly contact the other pins.  If it was touching the hot pin of the opposite channel, THAT would wipe out your stereo effect and leave you with a narrow soundstage.

Am I correct in surmising that you ARE getting a wider soundstage after adjusting azimuth only in relation to the LP surface, without regard for the Foz?

I apologize for my inability to resist puerile humor, back there up the thread.

Lewm, it's cool, I'm all about being lighthearted and trying not to take too much too seriously. So anyway, nah it wasn't touching anything(the little wire). And yes I did set Azimuth in relation to surface of an LP.  My thinking about the exposed hot wire and the stray strand was that the minuscule little signal may not be transferring 100% as well as it could be either through some oxidization of wire and/or signal loss from a broken strand. Lastly "wider" at this point is still not as I had it and the more I listen I'm not sure the retip is as successful as I'd previously imagined. But, more time will tell. 

@fourwnds  We need to go back to basics for a moment.  If you have a respectable cartridge to begin with (which your Grado is, or was) all of the components in that cartridge were designed to work together.  Magnets, coil windings, cantilever, etc.. The designer spent a lot of time choosing the right components that would work well together at a given price point.  Now, you take that cartridge and replace the cantilever with one that was not designed to work with the other component parts.  It won't be the same cartridge.  Even if your replacement cantilever is far more expensive (better) than the one it is replacing, the other cartridge components were not designed to work with it.  

I have to say my experience retipping absolutely confirms the above. I was optimistic it would be a nice nudge upward sound quality wise. Truthfully there are the improvements there that I wanted but it's at the expense of other facets of my Grado that I loved. Those improvements do not tip the balance in my opinion toward a favorable final outcome. Live and learn. I have since decided that the 2 series makes a lot of sense with the upgraded cantilever. That in addition to Grado's new winding machine support my desire to continue with a company's sound I love. In addition with a new phono stage I'll finally be able to go with a Statement output level and have it loaded correctly and with appropriate gain. 

Regarding Soundsmith and the Fozgometer(don't know if this applies to retipped whatevers):    https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-set-azimuth-adjustment-my-cartridge

I gave it my best but I couldn't get it to go. New Ref. Statement v2 on the way. Retip exp. big fail

Retip is a waste of money as I said from the beginning and as you now know first hand. Congrats on a new proper cartridge. 

Please post about how the new one sounds. 

Yes Invictus you were right. Feel better now. I can honestly say I won't go that route again but I also realize there are plenty of satisfied owners of retipped carts out there in vinyl playback land. Maybe it has something to do with Grado carts possibly not being candidates based on their construction. Who knows. 

@noromance I've been at it all evening and Ill take the risk early in  and state the new cart is pretty dang spectacular but I do want to give it some time before I make an overstatement. But so far from the get go it's really... I think I said wow 3 or 4 times if that tells you anything. I'm really very very happy. 

invictus005

Retip is a waste of money as I said from the beginning ...

That's a pretty broad statement. I've had excellence experience with a retip by Soundsmith. I'd recommend them to anyone.

Most people who retip their cartridges can't afford proper replacements and shouldn't have bought expensive items in the first place. Then they have to convince themselves that somehow the retip sounds as good. 

@invictus005, I almost went with The Statement V2 but at that price way too much to replace right now even at the $2350 exchange price. I can handle a grand seems very fair ya know for the enjoyment that we get from music.