The Carver Amp Challenge and the 21st Century and it's Failure


Some of you may be old enough to remember this article from Stereophile. Bob Carver claimed he could make an amplifier audibly indistinguishable from some of the best from Conrad Johnson. A high efficiency (not class D), solid state linear amp vs. a linear tube amplifier.


https://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge


Carver's approach was to feed a speaker via both amps at the same time using opposite terminals. The speaker itself was the measure of accuracy. Any difference in output between the two amplifiers would cause audible output.


What's super important here is Carver invented a new way to measure the relative difference of amplifiers with a real load.


That's kind of revolutionary from the standpoint of commonly published measurements of amplifiers before. Steady state, frequency sweeps, THD, IM and S/N all failed (to my ears) to express human experience and preference. I remember a reviewer for Audio, I think Julian Hiirsch, who claimed that these primitive measures were enough to tell you what an amplifier sounds like. The man had no ear at all, in my mind.  More here:


https://www.soundandvision.com/content/reconsidering-julian-hirsch

And here was Carver in 1985 cleverly showing that two amplifiers which measured reasonably well, sounded differently. We should also be in awe of Carver's ability to shape the transfer function on the fly. That's pretty remarkable too but not the scope of this post.


My point is, really, Carver showed us a revolutionary way to examine differences between gear in 1985 and yet ... it did  not become widespread.  << insert endless screaming here >>


As far as I know (and that is very little) no manufacturer of any bit of kit or cable took this technique up. We are still stuck in 1985 for specifications, measurements and lack of understanding of what measures cause what effects and end up cycling through cables and amps based on a great deal of uncertainty.


My points, in summary:

  • Most of what we consider state-of-the-art measurements are stuck in the 1970s.
  • There are a number of ways to improve upon them
  • No one has.
  • We should be a little more humble when asserting if it can't be measured it isn't audible because our measurements are not nearly comprehensive
  • I look forward to manufacturers or hobbyists taking modern equipment to pursue new measurement and new insights into our hobby.


Best,
E


erik_squires

Showing 3 responses by spatialking

Yeah, that was part of the story.   It started with a bold claim from Carver stating his amplifier was indistinguishable from a tube unit.  I believe Peter Aczel picked up the story in his review magazine, The Audio Critic.   When it wasn't the same, Carver had to modify his amplifier in significant ways to make it sound the same, one of which was increasing its current capacity significantly.   Those mods never made it into production since they were much too expensive.  

Tweaking time domain energy here and there, that has all been done before, although I think Bob was the first to apply it to audio work, ignoring tone controls and equalizers, of course.   Aczel's magazine went defunct before the review was published but Bob still reprinted that review with permission to sell his amplifiers.

I don't agree that most of our measurements are stuck in 1970 technology.  The test equipment we have today is like comparing a Lotus to a Model T. I wish I had today's stuff back in my audio design days!  Back then, we used to laugh and say "the test equipment we have today is like comparing a Lotus to a Model T" when we talked about 1970 technology compared to the 1950 technology.  However, I find myself saying the same thing today about current test equipment.   I can do things in my lab today with 1995-2005 era used equipment that I could never do in the 70's.  And, the best part, it is so much less expensive today than back in the 1970's when comparing performance to the dollar.

Likewise, I don't agree that no one has made improvements in measurements.   Folks have, I just don't see them dumping their IP into public domain for their competitors to use.    See, the thing is, audiophiles want a single measurement that is the cornucopia and tells all.   That is unlikely to happen, the fact is our equipment is fine, the key is knowing how to apply the equipment, how to interpret what you are measuring, and then solving the problem.
@Elizabeth, @Lowrider - I think I can shed some light on Bob Carver "haters", although I think the term "hater" is really too harsh, at least for me.  

I met Bob at a CES show many years ago.   We were both a lot younger then and back then he had a personality that just didn't work with me.   I am not sure what it was. Perhaps, I didn't like his bragging about the sound in his booth as a number of his competitors I visited had surprisingly better sound. 

That was one of my jobs at CES, as a  design engineer I had to check out the competition, check out the sound, and meet the designers, and get a feel for their philosophy.   (Analog circuit design is about 1/3 science, 1/3 philosophy, and 1/3 art form.)   Yet there he was Bob telling me his booth had the best sound at the show, and how the sound did this, and did that; yet my ears told me it didn't do any if the things he was claiming.  I guess he expected me to believe what he was saying rather than what I was hearing. 

The reason I walked over to his booth is one of our dealers came by our booth and mentioned how bad that sound was.  So bad he decided right off not to pick up his line.   In any event, I can see how Bob's personality back then could rub people the wrong way.  I still wouldn't use the term hater though.  Not too surprisingly, I never purchased any of his equipment since meeting him that first time.  

BTW, wasn't he the lead designer at Phase Linear?  I seem to think he was.