bsimpson, would you like to try Schroeder Method of Interconnect Placement? It likely would be more efficacious than your selection of speaker cables and would also likely be something your audio friends would appreciate. Not a hint of any, "very advanced anti-EMF nano snake oil helix structure that would take 10000 hours to break in," because, like you, I'm not into wasting my time and money.
The Science of Cables
It seems to me that there is too little scientific, objective evidence for why cables sound the way they do. When I see discussions on cables, physical attributes are discussed; things like shielding, gauge, material, geometry, etc. and rarely are things like resistance, impedance, inductance, capacitance, etc. Why is this? Why aren’t cables discussed in terms of physical measurements very often?
Seems to me like that would increase the customer base. I know several “objectivist” that won’t accept any of your claims unless you have measurements and blind tests. If there were measurements that correlated to what you hear, I think more people would be interested in cables.
I know cables are often system dependent but there are still many generalizations that can be made.
Seems to me like that would increase the customer base. I know several “objectivist” that won’t accept any of your claims unless you have measurements and blind tests. If there were measurements that correlated to what you hear, I think more people would be interested in cables.
I know cables are often system dependent but there are still many generalizations that can be made.
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My situation hopefully would not apply to all of you: My expensive cables always sound better if they cost more than my local audio club buddies'. But strangely, the same new cables typically sound much worst than my last ones from their perspective. So in a nutshell, who cares what other people think. Each person has different perception and sensitivity to sound. Go buy the ones that make you feel happy, even if they cost thousands of dollars due to the very advanced anti-EMF nano snake oil helix structure that would take 10000 hours to break in. |
elizabeth To get a true indication of the efficacy of each, please rotate the days of the week monthly and report back. |
taras22, "Flowing lava" did not refer to your cables in particular. It was just an imaginary thing instead of writing "all those complicated and marvelous descriptions of cable constructions that manufacturers present in order to justify their existence, attract potential customers, and distance their products from competitors’". I understand you may be a little more sensitive about this topic than an ordinary person would be, but do not think that every word ever written is about you and against you. Actually, a little later, I happily gave benefit of the doubt to your cables. In fact, they are really an interesting concept that I mention from time to time to describe how people try to change usual ways in this field. Have you ever thought that maybe it is not all of them, but one of you? If your message is not coming through and deniers, or whatever they can be called, are not switching sides that quickly, my guess about the reasons for it may be slightly more accurate than yours. I am not bragging, I am trying to let you know that not everyone out here/there is out to get you. You do not need to attack people all the time thinking how you will get them first. Toning it down may bring you more ears willing to listen to you and more overall happiness. Simply and simplistically so. |
Refresher: the Schroeder Method (“SM”) of interconnect cabling a system refers to taking 2 similar or dissimilar brands of interconnects and connecting them in parallel. Y-splitters can be used for native interconnects. One can also use manufactured assemblies in which the separate interconnects (typically of the same brand and type of core cabling) are configured in parallel and terminated with the desired connectors (RCA, BNC, XLR or AES/EBU). Douglas Schroeder posted the original article here: https://www.dagogo.com/audio-blast-schroeder-method-interconnect-placement/ The main cable forum thread here is the following: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/doug-schroeder-method-double-ic In that forum thread are 2 further links to Teo_Audio threads that describe possible mode of action behind the method. Those are essential reading as to the underlying principles that really aren’t addressed in the above thread. Commentary at the end of Schroeder’s Audio Blast article cited above also provides insight. |
Look, maybe cables matter, maybe they make a difference, maybe not so much, maybe they don’t. Each to her/his own. Who cares? What really matters here is sharing what has worked, not worked, in his/her own systems. After many years of buying cables both expensive and not so expensive, I found that I don’t need to have expensive cables in order to get good sound; sound that I am happy with and so can forget about the stupid cables. Chances are there is no such thing as a bad cable, it’s just system context, once again, and one’s personal preferences for form, fit and function. Again, who cares? Be happy. Listen to music, not boring cables. |
Well I guess someone has to say something about an earlier post and request by douglas. First let me say that I sympathize with the families of any victim of violence but I cant understand why anyone would ask that certain words and speech not be used in their presence because it "offends". Worse yet to apologize and add credence to such a request. May I remind you that you words must be taken in context and intent is critical. I am ashamed of these recent developments in our society which have lead to: safe rooms, time outs, optional school attendance due to some perceived trauma, discouragement of healthy political and social discourse and challenge referred to as hate speech to name just a few. My day is not complete without several offenses, challenges and some spirited discourse. Just think about how ridiculous most of this has become. |
It a hobby... First off no one actually cares what anybody else thinks. They may lip service the ideas, but in the end, everybody does whatever they please. If ten thousand audiophiles said you MUST do xxx. Well? am I gonna do XXX? depends on am I willing to be bothered? and how much does it cost? Do I actually believe the hype? For example the $599 sheet of Magic Paper.. Marvelous! Fantastic! some folks own a dozen!! That is over seven grand for what? Sorry, When the price is $5.99 maybe.. MAYBE. Same thing for cables. who cares is anyone else wants/does not want them?? Must be folks just need something to argue about. Reminds me of the Renaissance question tormenting endless scholars of "How many Angels can dance on a pin" (BTW the answer is none. they are forbidden to dance on pins anymore. Devils however just love to dance on pins.. out of spite.) All you Devils posting here. STOP!! Where is a good exorcist when you need one? Also. anyone had an exorcism done on the stereo? Cure those gremlins?? |
Not much of a stretch to say that functionally the cable haters/deniers club are saying much the same thing... "After all many people consider the whole cable pursuit unworthy because for them, the result isn't worth the cost" ....or maybe the idea that this audio thing was the result of moving the audio pile forward, common sense be damned, is now just a crazy idea that is becoming "a former member of the species" in this hobby...and this hobby is destined to be a calmed ship going nowhere...yet off in the distance is the call of the Schroeder Method yet that is being ignored or maligned or dismissed and in most of those cases quite smugly.... After all, many people consider the whole HEA pursuit unworthy because for them, the result isn't worth the cost. |
glupson
It is simply hard to believe, unless you are a priori firm believer, that changes in anything which is already on a fairly decent level can be so impressive. Noticeable maybe, but Earth-shattering (or whatever other description gets mentioned) just does not seem believable.You are free to believe as you wish, of course. But once a difference is established, whether it is an "impressive" difference or not is purely subjective. After all, many people consider the whole HEA pursuit unworthy because for them, the result isn't worth the cost. |
@glupson Cables may be dismissed as being capable of significant differences because they are, in essence and not in some very complicated "flowing lava"-kind of example, simple. At least in the minds of those suspicious ones. Well, a few things about the above...which seems a central pivot of your post. First it is not "flowing lava" is any way, shape, or form. Which is something that you could not say if you knew even the slightest thing about the eutectic alloy we use. And we all know the saw about talking about something we know little or nothing about, but I digress... Second, it is not at all simple, though it is typically expressed and "understood" in simplistic terms by folks such as yourself. And btw there is a considerable difference between simple and simplistic, a difference you may want to examine. And third, those aren't necessarily just suspicious minds though that is some small part of it, rather they are minds that are more correctly described as functionally most incurious, and very tightly closed . |
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glupson, I appreciate your cordial ongoing discussion. It's much better than us sniping each other's arguments. :) I am unsure where you got the impression that I tried triple interconnects, or that they were not efficacious. I have never tried the triple IC. I may at some point, but that was not me; there is another member whom I believe has contributed on this thread who was doing the triple. So, I cannot comment from experience. However, my recollection is that this member was very happy� with the triple IC arrangement. I do not recall seeing any comments of displeasure with it. I believe he felt it was worth trying. I do not know; perhaps he has gone back to a double IC that he felt was superior. He watches the cable threads, so perhaps he can comment. I think he was talking it up quite a bit on the thread bearing my name. I had raised a concern that unlimited parallel runs of ICs may cause problems with the output of certain devices if the native impedance of the cable is too low. One maker of a NOS DAC did not want me to use Schroeder Method because he suspected that the DAC would not drive it well. I myself would be willing to try a triple, but I would want to discuss with equipment manufacturers or other industry members first. I don't like potentially blowing up gear. If the geometry and gauge of the aftermarket XLR IC you tried was similar to the $15-16 one, then I am not surprised at all that the sound quality was so close. If they were quite different, ie. different conductor material or different AWG, then I do not know why they were similar sounding. Also, I wouldn't expect to hear big changes with systems in the $5-10K range if I were changing a single pair of ICs. I remember doing all that and many times there was marginally different result. It takes a rig at about $25K to always hear changes to any cables. Rigs at $50K it has been easy, universal in hearing changes. YMMV I figure you won't believe me, but Schroeder Method has been more profound of a change to the system than changing single ICs. It also doesn't seem dependent upon the cost/pedigree of the ICs used. |
douglas_schroeder, Just for a little amusement, as skeptical as I am about stunning differences between cables, I spent better part of the afternoon fighting to change the cable on my earphones (actually only one of them, the other one went smoothly). The new one, call it aftermarket, that got stuck on it was, to me, noticeably different/worse than the old original one. I believe the description would be "muddy" or "veiled", maybe something third, so I wanted to switch back. After destroying a large part of that earphone and then reassembling it to a large extent, it is back to "good" now. I would not do it again. I certainly would not be able to sell it as "mint" to anyone. Had I only been more careful with Crazy Glue. Add my limited experience with XLR interconnects ($15-16 vs. $300) and, at best, no change if not a little worse. No more "aftermarket" cables for me. "Aftermarket" because I think that most of the things, save for headphones, actually come without cables making almost every cable "aftermarket". Well, ok, I forgot power cords. Out of curiosity, do you have an explanation why tripling interconnects did not yield more improvement than doubling? |
taras22, I see your last, or at least last to me, point but I think it is a bit off. Not much, but a bit. Cables may be dismissed as being capable of significant differences because they are, in essence and not in some very complicated "flowing lava"-kind of example, simple. At least in the minds of those suspicious ones. It is a wire and that is what, according to the understanding of most, conducts. Not much in between beginning and the end of it. These days, there are many things wrapped around, but it still stays metal inside. That is how those who are not in love with cables seem to think according to most of the posts on these threads. It is not that they feel threatened and want to stop progress of any kind just to stay in their comfort zone. It is that they are not buying the story of "active ingredient" in a cable being so different. They feel they are trying to be fooled and taken for a ride. Not many here seem to be over-educated in physics. Basic knowledge, but hardly much more. And basic knowledge does not leave much room for stunning differences between wires. Going way above basic knowledge starts requiring a lot more. More formulae, bigger picture, more exact definitions. And those who are on that level do not buy "it sounds better and you cannot calculate it because I just came up with some hocus-pocus explanation". So, simpler ones may not be sophisticated enough to grasp and more sophisticated ones are not getting answers that are sophisticated enough. Again, I am not talking about liquid metal which, after all, is also a metal. It gets more slippery to claim or contradict something about that because there has not been a century or two of experience, for all I know. It is simply hard to believe, unless you are a priori firm believer, that changes in anything which is already on a fairly decent level can be so impressive. Noticeable maybe, but Earth-shattering (or whatever other description gets mentioned) just does not seem believable. It just does not. Many people take it as a marketing language that is common these days and they do not take it seriously. They may think "if that can truly be so spectacular, you may be too impressionable". |
And I am here to provide another outlet for this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-posters-intend-to-hurt-the-feelings-of-other-members |
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I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: this "debate" about cables is not about cables. There’s some underlying tenet of a conservative nature that predisposes some to belly-up-to-the-bar. The joking mention of religious fervor reminded me of it. Factor in the tribal nature that dominates all manner of discussion nowadays and one need not look any further than it being the impetus, the driving factor, behind a lot of these discussions we’re having and the elevated level of emotion that accompanies. This is not as serious as some make it out to be. All the best, Nonoise |
I think it is very helpful to the community to see further into the thinking processes of skeptics such as glupson and aftermarket cable proponents such as myself. :) Please refrain from continued comments about weapons. I find it offensive. My brother in law was murdered 30+ years ago and the case never solved. No justice was brought by man, but I trust it will by God in due time. I saw what the havoc did to my sister, so I don't think it' so funny to joke about weapons with subtext. |
taras22228 posts03-02-2019 8:23amWhat can I say, you’re Brilliant.....I’ve always said that....and incidentally just like your rocks, whose operating principle btw was used in a product that actually won an Oscar for technical achievement way back when... >>>>Really? |
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Good point...but caveatically only if the cable strictly conforms to the established LCR standards ?....cause all that other weird stuff is not theoretically robust enough ?....which hopefully means we, as purveyors of really weird cable, will not be included in any upcoming class-action suit ( and you know it will happen because sooner or later some crazy guy will snap and grab a cable and perpetrate some crimes or something...)... Wondering, Geoff, is this part of that Brer Rabbit and Tar Baby prophecy ?.....sorta the end of times-ish like, which is weird cause I always thought that was a kid’s story and this is pretty dark....?.... Methinks maybe we should all go wireless like right now to prevent this eh ? ....and look Geoff is already there, wow more sheer Brilliance !... |
