630 V version has thicker film. Tom Thiel (and his sources) is confident that will sound better. We are putting 630 V on the coax feed (ie, 14 and 28 uF caps) for maximum SQ. Where you are runnng in parallel to get proper capacitance, you might use a 250 V for the heavy lifting and 630 V for the final icing on the cake. Eg, 25 uF 250V plus 3 uF 630 V for 28 uF cap. The 43 uF subfeed cap is downstream from a 16 ohm resistor and will be a 250 V CSA. Elsewhere, I will be using 250 or 160 V caps, except for the Multicap bypasses which are 600 V.
That said, have fun and please relax about getting this “right”. CSA 250s are certainly going to be a notable upgrade over the OEM caps!
MRA-12 will give you more headroom compared to the OEM 10 W resistors. That is good!
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Beetlemania, thank you for the wonderful information. |
desmond888 Looking forward in reading more on your project.
Happy Listening! |
Dear holco and beetlemania,
I tried to remove the radiator but unsucessful. The radiator is still stuck with the enclosure. As adviced by holco, i shall remove the radiator by push it through one of the screw hole. Shall i push much harder through the screw hole by a smaller screw driver or there is other alternative. I'm worried that i might damage the radiator. Your help is much appreciated. |
Shall i push much harder through the screw hole by a smaller screw driver or there is other alternative?
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Thanks holco. Finally, i managed to get it removed from the enclosure. Removing the caps and having the csa caps soldered are not easy tasks for amateur like me. I did the soldering within the enclosure as i was reluctant to disconnect the connecting wiring. I took about 6 hours to eventually completed the task. Attached herewith some photos for sharing. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ao0sy7r7uybljls/AABS6soB9u_rDu7CnWUizpbPa?dl=0Initial audition showed that the high and mid are more resolved, sweet and opened as opposite to be more recess for the original caps. In addition, the timbre and textures of the instruments are more prominent with more mircro dynamic and details. The only complaint is it is not as balance as yet with the high and mid improved at the expense of lower bass. In particular, the ratio for high and mid overwhelm the lower bass. But It is not fair to make such a negative comments now as the caps need time to run in. My opinion is it is a great upgrade and i shall post further comments after the caps have run in. Thank you guys for the wonderful advices. |
For information, i used hot glue to hold caps to the board.
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Great desmond888 :-)
Apart from what you describe, the most striking difference to me was that the space was depicted much larger, how did that work out in your case?
The degradation of the low-end is not something I experienced, I would even say that for the modification the low/mid was leading at the mid/high and there is now a better balance.
In theory, that is also true because a capacitor (the best capacitor is no capacitor) is much more detrimental to the signal than a bass coil.
In my situation I also use a closed DIY dual opposed 15inch subwoofer (> 45Hz) and the setup is tuned with Dirac-Live (MiniDSP), in my case a big improvement because the stereo setup is placed in the living room.
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@desmond888 You might post this over on the Thiel Owners thread where Tom Thiel will see it. Your perceived shift in balance *could* be an artifact of altered total resistance on the coax board compared to woofer board. For example, the CSAs might have less resistance than the original caps. Might need to change the resistors to bring the balance back. But get Tom’s advice before proceeding! It might also be that your experience is shifted more so than actual frequency response . . .
Your boards appear to be second generation for the CS2.4. Printed circuit board but with good quality caps (MPT) and coils. Again, I strongly recommend upgrading the resistors, after you consult with Tom Thiel regarding possible value change. But good job!
The radiator can be a real challenge. It seems that there is one sweet spot where you can get it in or out and finding that spot is frustrating! |
Dear holco and beetlemania,
The mid and high have opened up with more air and sense of space. The tonal balance has shifted towards slightly warmer as compared to very neutral in the original caps. All acoustic instruments sound wonderful particularly violin as it sounded sweeter but less impressive for modern instruments. Imaging also improved significantly with a larger object.
Nevertheless, i hear the sound is changing with the caps started to break in. I shall post my exprience and seek advices from Tom in thiel owner thread after the caps have run in.
Perhaps, i can post a video for sharing.
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Hi desmond888,
It is very difficult to judge the sound quality in your video, but I can hear that the sound is nicely open, also notice that your room has a lot of problems with reflections, think it's a good idea to do something about it, the reward will be great!! |
Dear holco,
Thank you for your concern. In fact, i dont have any room issues. I have a tall ceiling, it is about 14 feet high and my system is opened and layback. If i play full orchestra classical music, it sounds like i m sitting in the concert hall with a tall ceiling.
I guess the video picked up some echo from the back wall where the recording was made. |
Btw, may i know what brand of the solder thiel is using? I found out that the melting point is higher. I used wbt solder with silver content but intend to use thiel solder to match with the rest of the soldering points.
Beetlemania, for my curiosity, may i know what brand of the mpt caps thiel is using ? |
desmond888
I have really enjoyed reading your thread. You have quite a DIY skillset.
Hope your project is going well. Happy Listening! |
@desmond888
Thiel used unleaded solder (high melting point) but I do not know the brand. I am using Cardas (leaded) for my new boards. In my case, I plan to replace everything from the terminal posts to the driver wiring. Posts and wire will be Cardas, so OEM solder is completely omitted.
I do not know the brand of caps Thiel used on your boards. Solen is a good guess but I suggest you ask Rob Gillum.
Are you still hearing an imbalance with the woofer? Did you change anything on the woofer board? The 2.4 layout I have says the DC resistance is 32 ohms for the coax (measured from hot in to hot out). @holco posted the same layout but someone wrote 31 Ohms DCR. My new board checked in at 30.4 ohms. I will measured the OEM board very soon to see how it compares. DCR on the woofer is <1 ohm. My new and OEM woofer board measured 0.4 ohm. Changing caps and coils can affect DCR even if the resistors are the same. This could have small effect on the sonic balance but shouldn’t change to the degree you reported. Perhaps something else is wrong?
Also, I am surprised you report no problems with your room. I suggest a few simple wall coverings, such as throw rugs to the side and rear wall, to dampen early reflections.
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Dear beetlemania,
I did not change other thing except the caps i mentioned in the forum. The only variable is i used two clatitycaps of (10uf +3.9uf= 13.9uf) as compared with its original caps of (13uf +1uf = 14uf). There is a deviation of 0.1uf.
I will let it run in further before making further assessment. |
Btw, holco, may i know what is the character of jantzen capacitors?
Thus far, i found out the clarity caps csa tends to produce a less fatigue sound/ golden sound, something similar to class A amp sound but it is not my cup of tea.
I prefer a more neutral and clean sounding caps. I might need to recap or mix the cap later after confirming the sound.
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As the year ends, it marks a beginning of another new year and new hope. I would like to take this opportunity wishing you and your family a wonderful year ahead.
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@desmond888
interesting report, thanks. Holco’s report is earlier on this thread.
My preliminary take is that the CSA is more transparent and resolved for pretty much all instruments and vocals. More open and clear, with notably better microdynamics. I will have more to say later, on the Thiel Owners thread.
But my subjective take should differ from yours. I have a late SE version with XOs sourced from FST. The coax feeds are Clarity SA but all other caps are CYC MKT, which is a lower quality. Also, I’ve been running Mills resistors since May. And my upgrade is a full rebuild with Multicap RTX bypasses on the coax feed CSAs. There is nothing from the OEM boards remaining, not even the coils. So, my starting and ending places are both substantially different than yours.
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@desmond888 I now have CSAs in both channels (although 2nd channel without bypass caps). At first, I thought I heard a subtle “hallway echo” on male vocals and “silvery sheen” on female vocals. But now it all sounds clean, so I assume it was a burn-in thing. And all I can say is “WOW”! The transparency and resolution are top shelf. Super clean sounding with textures previously unnoticed. Intelligibility of lyrics previously mumbled.
Now, my upgrade is much different than yours but I give CSA a big thumbs up! |
desmond888 how is your 2019 starting out? Happy Listening! |
Dear all,
I noticed the overall sound is changing. The initial perception of " imbalance" has become more balance. Also, it put more hot glue to secure the caps to board. It helps to reduce the vibration and makes the system sounded quieter.
I will let it run in further before making further assessment.
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@holco curious why you’re putting a foil coil on the woofer board and not replacing the one in the coax feed (0.15 uF).
One caution for the DIY crowd from Tom Thiel is to pay attention to the DC resistance on the boards as new parts can change these values and upset the balance. In my case, the new parts matched original values within 0.1 ohm. As Tom’s beta tester, I have full value capacitance in single caps. Only my bypass caps (~1% Multicap RTX) are in parallel, but those did not add measurable resistance. |
Good question beetlemania, will look into it.
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On my boards, that coax feed coil is an ERSE FoilQ. It is availble in 16 gauge at 0.15 mH. The OEM aircore one is 18 ga but I cannot tell it hurt anything to increase the gauge and was OKed by Tom Thiel. Then again, I’ve changed so many parts at once that it is near impossible to say where the biggest improvements came from. Well, I did change the resistors to Mills as a first step, so I know what those add to SQ. I will soon compare the Clarity CSAs with and without bypasses on the coax feed. |
beetlemania,
Because I can't get those small values in a Jantzen wax coil I decided to leave it in, not a big deal I think, the resistors and the caps play a lot bigger part on SQ
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@holco fair enough. Unless you have an FST-sourced XO like me (and your pics indicate you have a Lexington XO), the OEM coils are already excellent. I agree your boards will most benefit from better caps and resistors. |
beetlemania,
Yes the coil's are looking good and tight.
How did the Mills resistors worked out for you?
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The Mills gave a richer, fuller sound. I guess “more saturated “ is one way to describe it. Most importantly, the Mills removed a subtle “glassy” quality in the midrange and resulted in an ease of presentation, ie, reduced fatigue during long listening sessions. An easy recommendation, especially given the relatively low price. |
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Thanks beetlemania.
Ordered them :-) |
desmond888how is your upgrade breaking-in? Happy Listening!
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The degradation of the low-end is not something I experienced, I would even say that for the modification the low/mid was leading at the mid/high and there is now a better balance.
It's possible that the mod may have lifted mid a bit so relatively the perceived bass is a bit diminished. |
Unfortunately, my power amp has some issues following a rainy day. I need to send it for service.
Sadly, i have to say that i cannot contribute more at the moment.
Nevetheless, i'm glad to hear that all your upgrades yielding postive results.
I may need to recheck all soldering of the caps in the crossover after i have serviced my amp. My last heard was not so great. Somehow i feel that some frequencies were either weaker or missing resulting it to lose excitement.
May i know how to check the crossover with a capacitance meter and what is the value i shall get with the new caps? |
@desmond888
Are you asking about capacitance or resistance? The DC resistance on my FST coax board (with Mills resistors) was 30.5 ohms, 0.4 ohm on the woofer board. My new boards matched those values within 0.1 ohm. On my copy of the 2.4 layout, someone hand wrote 32 ohms for the coax, <1 ohm for the woofer. But that layout is for point to point on masonite. Tom Thiel discovered the values were later adjusted for the PCB environment. Holco’s copy indicates 31 ohms for the coax. Ideally, you would have measured that before you started your upgrade.
This is measured simply by connecting your ohm meter from the + in to the + out. |
beetlemania,
My two boards measure with only the Jantzen caps upgrade 30.5 ohm
after the upgrade with all other parts on the bigger PCB's I measure 30.1 ohm on the first ready one, could this be a tolerance effect between the resistors? Do I have to worry? |
The second board measure also 30.1 ohm, so atleast they are exactly the same, think that it is the Jantzen Cross coil, 0.12 ohm vs the 0.3 ohm on the original air-coil. |
Probably a question for Tom Thiel . . . I do know for individual components +/- 3-5% is acceptable, but maybe the tolerance is tighter for the global circuit? As a check, l compared the frequency response of a tone glide with and without the upgrade (well, OEM boards with resistors replaced). All good in my case. If the balance sounds right, you’re probably good. If you’re paranoid, ask Tom on the other thread. He *might* recommend modifying a resistor value.
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Finished the second loudspeaker and there seems nothing wrong, except my jaw is on the floor, what a great great great sound!!! |
@holco
yes, I literally had a grin on my face after I had the second channel upgraded. I was able to hear the improvements in mono but going to stereo put me in musical bliss. Wow! |
Dear beetlemania,
I'm comtemplating to upgrade the resistors in my xover suggested by you. May i know is there any sonic difference between the old millls resistor vs vishay mills resistor? Which one sounds better?
Dear holco,
Can you share some videos or thoughts after the major upgrade?
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I did not attempt to compare Mills and Vishay Mills. I read one opinion that the older Mills are better but Tom Thiel thinks this is not worth worrying about. And it’s mostly academic because the CS2.4 values force you to buy some of each - impossible to make this comparison even if you wanted to. |
Has you opinion of the CSAs changed? |
desmond888 how is your power amp? Can you talk about the other gear in your system? Hope you are well and having fun with your cross-over project.
Happy Listening! |
A measured of 30.1ohm on the coax xover makes sense. Based on the coax xover schematic, there is a 30ohm resistor in series with the resistance of the 0.15mh. The typical resistance of a 0.15mh inductor is probably in the range of 0.1 - 0.3 Ohm. So if you add both together, it's about in the range of 30.1 - 30.3 Ohm.
In my experience, Clarity cap tends to sound slightly mid range forward. The CS2.4 driver being very transparent so this may explain the perceived lower bass response balance. |
Sorry guys, i still have yet to send my amp for service. Just excited with beetlemania resistors upgrade.
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