Saw this release. Unfortunately the designers seem to be slow learners! This cartridge, like all of the other models in their upper ranges has basically zip for output! At some point, I am hopeful that the realization that this type of flea output leads to much greater distortions and exertion on the upstream phono stage ( or will require a signal sucking SUT) will at some point stop this trend. While the theory is that this minimal output leads to a cleaner signal from the cartridge, IME that is anything but the case. Maybe someone should ask J Carr why all of his excellent designs utilize a healthy voltage output. I’m VERY sure there is a perfectly good reason for this.
TIME'S CELEBRATION: ORTOFON FIRST CENTURY ANNIVERSARY ! ! ! ! !
Dear friends: This is a true time's celebration for all audiophiles over the world: 100th ORTOFON ANNIVERSARY.
ORTOFON needs no presentation but stop the press and stop/delay your next cartridge buy:
https://www.ortofon.com/mc-century-p-863?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HiFi%20NL%20May%202018&am...
https://www.ortofon.com/concorde-century-p-862?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HiFi%20NL%20May%202...
Btw, @mikelavigne as always your comments are welcomed.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
ORTOFON needs no presentation but stop the press and stop/delay your next cartridge buy:
https://www.ortofon.com/mc-century-p-863?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HiFi%20NL%20May%202018&am...
https://www.ortofon.com/concorde-century-p-862?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HiFi%20NL%20May%202...
Btw, @mikelavigne as always your comments are welcomed.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
45 responses Add your response
Dear @pbnaudio : Now I understand the davey post. You are rigth that was never a to serious issue. Good active SS designs is all what we need for very LOMC cartridges like some of the Ortofon models but even through top SUTs its quality level performance is second to none. I used the MC2000 with excellent results even that's output level is only 0.05mv ! ! Always is an advantage to have wire winding coils at minimum especially there because as more length on the coil wires as more degradation can comes. Obviously that does not exist a perfect cartridge and Ortofon are not, always exist trade-offs but if the main target in a cartridge design is a little different from busine$$ then designers looks for a better equilibrium as Ortofon that in its top LOMC cartridges never choosed for a little higher output. Rigth now I'm enjoying my re-borns special MC 3000MK2 with an output level 0.125mv and its quality performance is just gorgeous where we almost can't ask for more and this is an Ortofon vintage design older than the one you name it and better than the 70. My special 3000MK2 can even the performance of the MC A90 and surpass easily the very good Jubilee or the 7500. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @stringreen : The Windfeld is something to own and its output is 0.3mv. As I said balls and drive are there, you only have to have the rigth system to ask for. I can think that the new Windfeld Ti with’s lower 0.2mv output is even a better quality performer than the great one you own. Maybe, time of an up-date? or maybe the 100th anniversary ! Btw, I ask @mikelavigne to chime on the LOMC 100th anniversary because when the Anna began and seen the " ligth " for the very firt time was Mike one of the first audiophiles in the audio world to own/listen it before the cartridges were at the Ortofon distributors. Maybe this time too. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Invictus, On VA, one of the inmates posted that with his SME V, the new Ortofon Century will give a resonant frequency of about 10Hz, smack in the middle of the desired range. So maybe you ought to give it a thought for use with your SME V. For me, with MC cartridges, it almost seems that my rating would be inversely proportional to voltage output, which is to say the lower the signal voltage output, the better the cartridge sounds in comparison to other models from the same maker or even across brands. And you don't necessarily need an all solid state phono stage to achieve low noise and high gain. |
@lewm I will be trying the Concorde Century. But MC Century at $12K is beyond stupid. I can get an SME Model 20 for that price. Or a number of other awesome pieces of audio gear. BTW, resonance would be at 11Hz. There are tons of other cartridges that would work just as well and better. And I'm not convinced that it's all that important. |
I can think of no tube phono stages that will work well with a cartridge that has between 0.125 and 0.2 Mv of output. The age old argument has been that the less wire the less loss. IMHO, that is a bogus argument. What is lost by the necessity to have either an SUT or a “stressed” ss phono preamp, easily outweighs any gains in the minimization of the wiring. YMMV. |
I enjoy the Ortofon cartridges a fair bit. Have an A90 on a Denon DP75 in VPI plinth and Acos GST 801 arm. There is a Cadenza Blue on a Technics SP10 MKII in obsidian plinth and EPA 250 arm. Have no problems with either cartridge into a Liberty Audio B2B-1 phono stage. Truth is the Cadenza Blue amazes me on a daily basis. With that said i still adore my ZYX 4D. |
Neo - you have a excellent Phono stage 😄🎶👍 - and no with the right amplifier any low output MC will shine. Your B2B-1 is a boil down from this one http://pbnaudio.com/audio-components/audio-preamps/olympia-pi-pxi I fully agree the ZYX Cartridges are very special - excellent sound - even though the plastic body display a different perspective Good Listening Peter |
Dear friends: As in deep as I'm with Ortofon I did not know that they started with FILM SOUND. Ortofon is a true ICON in the Audio Industry and perhaps no one knows so many about cartridge design or at least are second to none: Ortofon pedigree is astonishing/outstanding and we can read why and obviously the ones with Ortofon first hand audio experiences at their home: https://www.ortofon.com/about/development this is the very first time ( and the best time to do it. ) that ORTOFON use diamond cantilevers in this Anniversary LOMC design. The cartridge must be something, at least, listening it in a top audio system. https://www.ortofon.com/about/timeline Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @daveyf : "
I can think of no tube phono stages that will work well with a cartridge that has between 0.125 and 0.2 Mv of output. " not for that output level and for any other output level, tubes are not for home audio system MUSIC/SOUND enjoyment. " age old argument has been that the less wire the less loss. IMHO, that is a bogus argument. What is lost by the necessity to have either an SUT or a “stressed” ss phono preamp, easily outweighs any gains in the minimization of the wiring. " bogus?, obviously you have no idea what you are talking about and confirm it your " stressed " ss phono preamp. Do you know that a ss active high gain phono preamp is designed expressely for that kind of job. Expressely to handle with absolutely aplomb those very low cartridge output levels? or according to you an amplifier with 300 watts by channel in 8 ohms spec is " stressed " and with more poor quality performance than an amplifier with 40 watts design? what in a hell are you talking about?, each audio designer designs according the specific needs on what his design will be used where the designer always takes in count that the design stays far away from any kind of distress. Got it? Did you read something like designed overload safety margin or amplifier power headroom or .... or ? R. |
Raul, you need to calm down a little.. :0( plus, it would probably help if you weren’t attempting to read into my post things that weren’t there. For instance, nowhere do I say that there are NO solid state phono stages that cannot work with flea output cartridges. There may be few that can, but I think most ss phono stages will be pushing the envelope to amplify that small an output. You need to reread my post above and stop reacting... your example of the amp is ludicrous. Lastly, so that I am clear in your position... coming from a self anointed expert, you are stating that no tube gear can produce music... in your opinion... yes?? |
Dear @daveyf : "
Do you know that a ss active high gain phono preamp is designed expressely for that kind of job. Expressely to handle with absolutely aplomb those very low cartridge output levels? " as every thing in audio can be good and not so good designs but any decent design even my statement characteristics in a phono stage design. The real problem with low output or very low output cartridges is to achieve the rigth gain with LOW NOISE Anyway, thank's for your response. Btw, tubes? well a walkman can makes " sound " too. So what? that's does not means can make the rigth sound. R. |
I personally would not pay $12K for a cartridge, but I don't think the idea is "beyond stupid". Davey, The (all tube) Atma-sphere MP1 will work fine with cartridges down to around 0.2mV, with no significant noise penalty, and this is without a SUT. Beyond that, there is more than one hybrid tube/solid state phono stage that will also work well. I modified my own MP1 by converting the input phono voltage gain stage to a solid state/tube hybrid circuit. As a result, I can deal with even an Ortofon MC2000 (.05mV output) with inaudible noise and with quite a bit of headroom (no SUT needed). The MP1 is a fully balanced device, input to output. This provides for quite a bit of noise cancellation. I think it is unwise in this hobby to make sweeping generalizations unless one has actually done the work to support such. |
@lewm When it comes to analog, a phono preamplifier is the single most difficult component to engineer and build. MP1 (pushing $20,000!!!) uses 10 tubes to get 66dB of MC gain and another 6 tubes for line level. I have not heard it, but I doubt it would be considered low noise with the cartridges in question. Yes, some of us own or can build a state of the art phono preamp, but the rest 99.99% of audiophiles buying these very low output cartridges are listening to garbage sound. Just because something makes noise and plays loud enough, doesn’t mean that it’s any good. |
https://www.stereophile.com/content/liberty-audio-b2b-1-phono-preamplifier This little gem does LOMC easy 🎶👍 and yes yes I make them good Listening Peter |
Dear @lewm : I'm totally sure that this Ortofon 100th anniversary is a must to have or at least listen it in a top audio system we truly know its quality level performance. The design of this cartridge, as is its price, is a total departure from what Ortofon showed through all those years where they never try to use " sophisticated materials or mystic build histories or marketing hipes " to design and to market and fix the item prices. Ortofon is a total/100% of knowledge and skills at every single " sigth " surrounded its designs for it can works always in favor of MUSIC. The Windfeld or the A90/95 are extraordynary performers but its price is extremely reasonably against the top models with other manufacturers as can be Koetsu or Clearaudio or even Lyra or Air Tigth. With this Ortofon cartridge they use diamond to build the cantilever for the very first time and I'm sure that the replicant 100 stylus for this cartridge is expressely hand selected. You have at least two LOMC cartridges that came from Ortofon: the 7500 and the 2000 where you can attest what I'm saying here. No marketing hipes, only true/real design and excecution design to quality levels no one can even it. Ortofon pedigree talks for them. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Ever notice that no one ever talks about if it sounds like real music. These threads go on and on about null points, these tone arms, blows the other stuff away, distortion, black background, holographic, sound stage, crisp high, tight bass, etc etc etc.. You have people who talk in absolutes without even listening to the product. OK I have endured the nonsense that digital is neutral, null points make a huge difference, SUT's are crap, and now you can not make a great tube phono stage. Now I am not hear to tell you what you like. For me is it simple, I want it to sound like real music. When is the last time you went to a concert, club, etc and listened for a black background, soundstage, or tight bass. When have you heard when the needle hits the 2 null points. If holographic is your thing some Maggie's might be in the picture. Sorry to disrupt the status quo of this forum. Will shut up now, and go listen to my shitty dht tube gear, and my 14 inch oil dampen wood, UNIPIVOT tonearm. |
AMG - a 2MRed is $100 - the Quintet series is very high performance to price ratio - yes the pinnacle 100 year celebration offering is expensive - and to the ones that wants is most likely worth the price of admission. Ortofon offers a Century Concorde @ $550 with a shibata shaped stylus. Your moniker is AMG the premium souped up offerings of Mercedes Benz - I’m truly puzzled by your remarks good listening Peter |
@pbnaudio Peter, I appreciate your opinion and comments. My moniker are actually my initials and birthdate rather than the desirable but way out of my league Mercedes Benz vehicles. I was referring to the very high end offerings of Ortofon (Exclusives) that are of the 100year celebration exclusive offering. It would be nice to see some specials for say the Cadenza series Bronze $3000) which is some serious dollars (for me anyway). A 2MRed is indeed FROM $169 dollars in Australia, and would sound like a cheap cart too. That is why I see so many on the 2nd hand market. A base level 2M Black and Quintet Bronze are both $1000. Ortofon Australia do not list the Century Concord at all. We must live in totally different markets. |
The name Concorde assotiated with cheap and awful sounding DJ moving magnet cartridges made for decades. It has nothing to do with the original Concorde from the late 70s as it was a LOMC Concorde MC200 which they never tried to repead. At least for 30 years all Concorde MM were made for pro market, and till today they are made for pro market. Overprices Concorde cartridges are inferior even compared to the cheapest Grado MI. Concorde made for professional needs of disc-jockeys since the late 80s till today (Concorde Pro, Concorde DJ, Concorde Night Club, Concorde Skratch, Concorde Gold ... just to name a few very popular classic models). For the last 10-15 years all Concorde models were redesigned, but only visually. Instead of the good looking classics like the Concorde Pro (Silver) or Night Club, the Ortofon designers released a bunch of funny looking carts recently that only demonstrate a very bad taste (in my opinion). No one even remember how a good Concorde MC200 (with micro coil) sounded, the reputation was buried for audiophiles and the market was floaded with those bad souding Concordes and similar OEM carts like Tonar Banana etc. But the DJ models of various Concorde are the best sellers for the company, mainly because of the usability, no need to set up the cartridge, just plug and play (on Technics SL1200mkII and related). The only problem is that Concordes are killing the records and designed to be used with high tracking force up to 5g! The cheapest Grado DJ100i is killing Concorde it terms of sound, the Grado are much cheaper, superior in every aspect, but they are not popular on the pro market and user must have some knowledge how to set up the cartridge. Well, this is the story of Concorde since the late 80s till today, audiophiles probably knows nothing about it. Now they are decided to make 400-500 Euro Concorde Anniversary MM in some awful mirror finishing, but the name Concorde is primary associated with mediorce sound, low compliance for decades! There are plenty of great MM/MI cartridges at this price from different manufacturers (Grado, Garrott, Nagaoka etc). This item is for collectors, for those who loves limited edition models. They are not gonna make a serial number of Concorde Anniversary. I don’t know what we have to celebrate here... release of $14 LOMC cartridge with solid diamond cantilever, maybe? Technics offered SP-10R turntable for the same price. |
Dear @tomwh : """
, I want it to sound like real music. When is the last time you went to a concert, club, etc a... """ Well a good walkman can do it, just a joke. Nothing can sound as real music but live music. Btw, I attend at least one day each week to listen live music that's my main reference. Almost each one of us have different home audio room/system targets mine is to stay nearer to the recording and my room/systems was and is developed around that target. That target means too that as nearer to the recording we are as nearer to that " real music " you said. To stay nearer to the recording there are forbiden audio items that in no order could be: tubes, SUTs, unipivots, cooper wires and so on. To stay nearer to the recording we have to fine tune, test after test and understand each link at the room/system chain. Understand what the cartridge signal needs what is asking for that delicated signal that is pick-up for the cartridge stylus tip as vibrations/movements and then converted on electrical " sound ". Preserve the integrity of that cartridge signal is my main goal trying to mantain at minimum everykind of noise/distortions generated at each single system link till the signal arrives to my beloved ears/brain. To achieve that kind of purity in the cartridge signal we have to take care and to have deep knowledge levels and skills in several critical audiophile subjects including to own a self bullet proof method/proccess for tests and evaluations of that audio room/system. So you need all that stuff knowledge that for you is only BS but obviously due that your target is different from mine you care about other priorities. Your privilege. Again , as nearer to the recording as nearer to the MUSIC. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Raul I have played in marching, concert, stage bands and orchestras. I play jazz at home. I also build all my own turntables, arms, power supplies and amps, phono stages etc... My phono stage weighs in at over 150 lbs. Over kill probably!!! A point to point debate with you would end up being fruitless. Anyone who is in the know and can hear and feel music knows your so called understanding of distortion has little meaning in the end of the game of real music. Enjoy the ride Tom |
well said, Tom he always getting it to extreme, now even against all copper wires, which is funny as the best cable designers like Chris Sommovigo still using a copper conductor: https://blackcatcable.com/products/redlevel-triode-rca but it depends how did they used them. Same about silver or copper/silver like this one for example: https://blackcatcable.com/products/indigo-rca-interconnect |
I still would have thought that being such an important milestone and being in production for 100 years, the cartridge releases are for the rich and famous, nothing for the common man who still has to pay big coin for a halfway product. Halfway? Are the top end cartridges 4x the performance of the low end performers? Considering the Cadenza Bronze (at AUD$30000) is a 1/4 the price of the century releases, do they perform 4x better? Again, the poor guy gets ripped off. (AUD$3000) for a average cart? |
Dear @tomwh : """
Raul I have played in marching, concert, stage bands and orchestras. I play jazz at home. I also build all my own turntables, arms, power supplies and amps, phono stages etc... .""" and that means?? please let me understand what you try to say. "" Anyone who is in the know and can hear and feel music knows your so called understanding of distortion has little meaning in the end of the game of real music. """ how is that because in a live event when you are seated in the near field the experience is way way different that the " same " one in a home audio system/room experiences where you need not only to be aware of different kind of distortions but to discern which kind of distortions/noise is and find out where its comes from. Almost nothing of these happens in a live event . Here too I can't understand what do you want to tell? why fruitless? Again, we can't compare in anyway a live event against any home audio system. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @tomwh : So where is your contribution to the audiophile in this forum? In a forum like this posts are opinions and I think that every single opinion from any gentleman here must gives his opinion always adding the " facts " that could confirm or not that opinion. I can see/read that till this time you share nothing that could help to each one of us. Why don't do it? R. |
Dear @amg56: """
Halfway? Are the top end cartridges 4x the performance of the low end performers? """ quality levels does not jump in the same quantity. When we have say a cartridge that performs at 90% quality level against the very best that performs at 99%. Pass from 95% to 99% is extremely difficult task for the manufacturer that needs not only knowledge and skills but a lot of tests and time consuming that when the cartridge new model comes out in the market the MK2 version price is to high that we can think as you: that maybe is not justified because only 4% better. No, it's not 4x performance of the low end models. It can't be but what is for sure is that the top ones are better and for you can attest it you have to own a system that can tell you the differences for the better. R. |
I still would have thought that being such an important milestone and being in production for 100 years, the cartridge releases are for the rich and famous, nothing for the common man who still has to pay big coin for a halfway product. Each his flavor of the week but honestly, Ortofon is mainly known for DJ and cheap designed SPU cartridges. They simply discovered that they can make much more money with a "High End" Product, so they launched A-90. An awful, dead cartridge which was pushed from a few deaf audiophiles in USA, in the home country Germany it was nearly unsellable. Very limited in playing time, guess 1000h and it was down. Interestingly no one from its pushers wrote about that. The next audiophile cry was the one which was named for this female violin player, Anna. Next sonic shot into the knee. And now another milestone, no sorry, the sonic game changer mk 25.5 The next sonic blockbuster of ’the famous blue stone of Galveston’ :-) Great |
I did talk to my local HiFi sales-pusher (he tries to grab my every dollar!) and he suggested the Rega Apheta 2 or up a bit to Aphelion 2. He said he gave away selling Ortofon due to the way THEY want HIM to sell them. He just walked away. Fair enough. I am a complete novice on cartridges. I can only take peoples advice and read reviews (which are sometimes enlightening). My current understanding is that MC cartridges are very much influenced by the tonearm, pre-amp and so on. It's a steep learning curve. As a lad in the 1960s the cartridge was welded to the phonograph and you watched it weave side to side as it followed the record groove. It's a whole new world an I am finding out, quickly! |