Gee Dense Tomic nice of you to say, by the way read all the Kef white papers you should read the one on the Kef Blade and Kef reference lines.
As per what I was doing in 1978, I was working at an audio store under the table at age 13 by the way, so while you were playing Roadie I was actually selling consumer electronics.
As per Quads, owned the Quad 63, as well as Quad US monitors, with dual Entecs, owned Quads for a total of eight years and setup a pair of modified Crosby Quads was doing that in my 20’s how old were you when you got your first high end rig?
Also in my mid 20s started working at Sound by Singer, who was one of the top audio dealers in the country with 10 sound rooms and almost every major brand of audio gear on display while at College was assistant manger at a college High Fi Store.
The Quads don’t sound anything like live music, they have restricted dyanmics, an unfocused image, and a missing top end and bass, they have fantastic midrange that is about it ever wonder why Quad ELS basically disapeared from the market?
Also loudspeaker design 101 a large surface causes diffraction, and even with Peter Walkers delay lines and creating a ripple you still have frequencies bouncing off the total surface of the radiator, hence the large and unfocused image. but hey how many high end speakers imaged with precision in the mid 80’s.
Bought my pair from KJ Leisursound in 1988 when the pound went to near parirty to the dollar.
Moved from the Quads to the Wilson Watt Puppy which sounded so much more like the sound of a live music, perfect they were not, visceral, dynamic, with a much better sense of image placement.
As per your crack on the Legacy’s AMT, they are German made Heil drivers not sourced from China, the midrange driver is silk and graphite made in Italy for Legacy, the crossovers use all top quality parts, in a very well damped cabinet, should get your facts straight.
Lastly the Treo CT uses the Balsa composite tweeter, with a tri laminate midrange driver, these are not the same materials, a carbon fiber dome will be a harder material with greater speed then a woven carbon fiber driver, woven carbon fiber is Kevlar isn’t it and woven carbon fiber has been superseeded by better materials wittness B&W newer Continum cones which are far stiffer than their earlier cones.
Lets talk midrange colorations, shall we, plastics all have a sound which is intrinsically soft. The same way that metal drivers also tend to ring but produce a sound much closer to the real instrument in terms of clarity and over tones.
Metal drivers and ceramics have been getting better and better, lighter stiffer materials push up breakup modes, and Beryillium is uniquely prized by its ability to be self damped due to its extreme stiffness and light weight.
As per coherency most high end manufactuers try where ever possible to use the exact same material for every driver as much as possible if you look at Rockport, Magico, Vivid, Kef, Paradigm.
The ear is especially sensitive in transitions between the tweeter and the midrange. the fact that according to your previous arugments all drivers have to be perfectly pistonic and the Treo CT’s midrange driver is not.
Lets just say we both have a lot of experience in this arena, you are not going to change each others minds.
And we used to sell Thiels an ancient pair of Theils are not not close, the CS 3.7 was a great speaker but would be outclassed by the much newer driver technology of the Kef Blades.
Having a Vandy dealer has nothing to do with it, we like Vandys up to a point, remember used to sell them at SBS, and know the speakers well, they were truly fantastic in the 90’s today there are speakers which sound amazing to compete with them in sleeker more WAF friendly designs.
We are very happy with our Legacy’s which are somewhat tuned sonically like the Vandys, we are also quite happy with the sound quality of the Paradigm’s and Kefs, heck we love our ATC and Quads so it isn’t that we can’t sell Vandy’s we don’t want to we have more than enough great speakers.
You should hear a set of Quad Z4 carbon fiber midrange and woofers, wed to an amazing ribbon tweeter so special.
Good night Tomic, thanks for the diatribe.
Dave and Troy
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Here is a perspective from a Kef dealer who has the Kef Blades and have used them at a few area shows.
The Kef Blades will match of equil any $60k-$100k set of speakers if you set them up correctly and personally do not see the advantage of the Vandy 7 being much more expensive for a speaker with lower efficiency, less power handling, and a lower and smaller soundstage.
The Kef Blades were developed at a price tag of $4 million dollars, by some of the most respected engineers in the world, they are a true point source where all frequencies including bass emminate from the same point in space.
Our setup in the 2012 New York Audio Show with the Kef Blades, a $30k set of Chord mono block amplifiers, a $20k Chord preamp, a $22k Esoteric Dac with high end cabling etc the system's price was about $150k including turntable.
Down the hall GTT Audio, $107k YG Sonja, Solution amps $80k, Solution preamp $40k, Solution Dac and transport of similar very expensive digital, $40k turntable total system price $400k or so.
We were expecting the YG/Solution system to be better it wasn't it was different not better.
The combination of huge soundstage, very good image placement, good top end extension and deep tight bass for $32k makes the Kef Blades a bargain for high end loudspeakers.
Just consider that the huge $30k price difference between these two loudspeakes would get you a pair of Blades and a really top notch amplifier and preamp.
As per tunning yes the Vandersteen's do have tunning in the bass which is a fantastic thing, so does the Paradigm Persona 9H which can be totally tuned by Anthem's ARC program to cover way more frequencies than the 11 band parametric eq that Vandy uses.
Also for $25k you get the Legacy Aeris which goes very low in the deep bass and also comes with a dac, preamp, crossover with Bohmer room correction which compensates for both time and frequency issues.
The issue with the Blades is the same issue we have raised with the Paradigm Persona and B&W and Focal, these larger companies will allow dealers that may not have the right matching equipment or rooms sell their products not to mention at shows they don't necessarily use the optimal matching gear only from vendor partners that they have a relationship with so again the pairing might not be optimal.
You need to come to a good dealer and here a well setup pair of Blades for yourself and if possible use a similar level of gear then what the Vandy 7 dealer would be using, so if the Vandy 7 are being played with $50k worth of electronics then you shoud be seeking a similar level of setup not a pair of $32k Kef Blades on a $5k integrated amp or just whatever.
The Vandy's have a very smooth liquid sound and are very engaging, a well set up pair of Blades won't be quite a warm in the midrange, however, they will sound super clean and accurate with a gigantic image and when tuned appropriately will be very smooth and musical as well.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef Blade dealer
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Gee Tomic so a speaker lower then ear height with an agreesive rake angle is better than a wide dispersion true point source which may be higher than listening height based on what?
Listening height is dependent on couch height, listener height and distance from the loudspeaker as well as the dispersion of the loudspeaker.
You miss one super valid point for $30k less money you can get an pretty darn good set of amplifiers and a preamp to boot.
A properly set up pair of Blades is pretty awesome which loudspeaker is "better" is up to personal interpretation.
We also sell the Legay Aeris and they are a ridiculous value for $25k you get a speaker with full active bass, full room equilization, and 96db efficiency, these are an even better deal than the Kef Blades as all you now need is a set of amplifiers and a streamer, the Aeris comes with a Wavelet processor which is a pretty good dac, preamplifier and room correction processor.
Your love of Vandersteen is admirable, but they are just one good choice out of a sea of great loudspeakers, which include the brands we sell and those that we don't.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef Blade and Legacy Aeris dealer
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Tomic the Blade is very narrow low defraction design, do you honestly think that Jack Oclee Brown and the engineering team at Kef didn’t think of all the issues with a concidental driver after Kef has made about 11 generations of these types of drivers?
Do you also think that Kef after spending $4million dollars to develop this technology couldn’t produce a world class loudspeaker?
Some of the worlds greatest loudspeakers are using a concidental driver to great affect the degree of engineering envolved is very difficult but it does seem both TAD and Kef have pulled it off.
As per comparing loudspeakers want to compare a set of Legacy Signarures to your Vandy Quattros CTs?
Sure the $7k Legacy has much deeper bass, a larger image, greater efficiency at $7k less money is a pretty spectactular deal but we forget that the only magical speakers are Vandy right?
Tomic there are tons of great speakers Vandy is one good choice, so is Kef, Dali, Magico, B&W, Paradigm, Legacy, Harbeth and a zillion other good loudspeakers, it all comes down to does the listerner prefer this particular set of attributes vs another.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Mr M whlch model Legacy what vintage?
The current Heil Amt and new midrange driver Legacy is now using way better than their original series which were good but not world class what Legacy builds today is a vastly improved product.
We compare the $14k Quattros to the $7k Legacys Signatures.
The larger Focus goes to 18hz and is 96db efficient and still costs 3k less
Find a nice current pair of Legacys and see for yourself.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Legacy Dealers
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Also Mr, M, how do you know how long we have been selling Legacy? When did you get a set of Legaxys, and what vintage, also what cables and equipment were you using? Was it the same setup you are now using with your Vandys? I am willing to bet you Vandy setup is not the same as your Legacy setup was?
We are not saying that the Legacy's are perfect they are a remarkable buy for $7k for a speaker that has so many attributes: deep bass, high efficiency, beatutiful cabinetry, advanced Heil AMT midrange and tweeter, custom midrange driver, if you like warm and full bodied sound which is what we hear with both the Legacy and the Vandys then both of these speakers would be for you.
If someone prefers more detail and a more upfront presentation then the Paradigm Pesonas will be even better although they sound a bit smaller in size.
As per bass if you use a set of Isoacoustics isolation footers under the Signturatures the bass gets tighter and more articulate,
Enjoy your Vandy's not saying they arern't good.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Legacy dealers |
Tomic how unexpected of you, really chasing our tails?
Don't know about you but look up ATC most of the worlds top recording studios and mastering house use ATC loudspeakrs, which don't have pure pistonic cones or open non reflective midrange drivers now do they?
I guess ATC speakers are not good now are they? By your admission chasing tails is that only Vandy speakers are correct.
Tomic you really need to go and talk with major loudspeaker designers like Lawrence Dickie of Vivid who was also B&W top engineer, about first order slopes and what they do wrong vs what they do right vs harder slopes and what they do right.
I guess Kevin Vockes and Floyd Toole of Revel don't know what they are doing either, nor does Jack Oclee Brown of Kef fame, or Andrew Jones of TAD and Elac doesn't know what he is doing either?
Guess Peter Walker and Gail Sanders of Quad and Martin Logan didn't know jack either.
Tomic all loudspeakers have their strengths and weakness, for a $70k price tag I would take a set of Scanea Line arrays in a heartbeat over your Vandy 7s,
The Scaena lines arrays had the scale and scope of live music we stopped selling them because the company was wonky, but the speakers were amazing.
Lets just agree to disagree, I will go back to listening to my Kef Blades, Legacy Aeris and Paradigm Persona 9H and keep chasing my tail.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef, Legacy, Paradigm dealer |
2psyop, we never said any of the loudspeakers lines in this thread are
"better" then another, We have said that both the Blades and the Legacy's products are very competitive loudspeaker lines that challange much more expensive ones.
In the case of the Blades vs the Vandy 7 they are $30k difference between them.
In the case of the Vandy Quattro CT vs a pair of Legacy Signatures again you are at a $7k difference in price for a loudspeaker which plays louder and is more efficient, no you don't get tunable bass but for that you can get a Wavelet and do full room correction.
The point is that we have said is not to glorify any brand, the Vandy guys here are much more in the "only our product is the correct one because it is time and phase aligned camp" and only Vandy produces purely pistonic drivers therefore everyone else produces intrinsicly flawed products.
To which we have replied there are many fantastic loudspeakers that are beloved by those listeners, Wilson, Rockport, Magico, KEF, B&W, Focal, etc that are not time and phase aligned,
If Wilson's midrange driver is not purly pistonic and the listener likes it better who cares it is the persons money.
Our philosophy at our store is to find very high value for the dollar lines from class leading companies. Legacy represents a fantastic amount of performance for the dollar are they perfect no but they are great if you like what they do.
The Kef line is also a fantastic overall line of loudspeakers we think they are less of a value then the Legacys, but there is no denying how realistic a set of Kef Ref 3 or 5 or Blades can sound.
Yes the Vandy 1C are a fantastic loudspeaker in that price range, so it the 2Ce, you just have to like what they do vs the competition and what they do differently, we have found the Quad S and Z series to be unbelievable in this price range with a totally different set of atttributes.
Long story short, go and listen to comparably set up products and decide which product is for you. They are all great in their own way.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Legacy, Quad, Kef dealers |
Mr M that still doesn't answer our questions to is the system that you had the same and you only swapped the Legacy's for the Vandys?
Also doesn't answer the vintage we heard Legacy for years and we thought their speakers were good but not great, it is only with the recent series of products did we get on board a few years ago and have been thrilled with them. Earlier versions were not as coherent and the older drivers were not in the same league as the current Heil AMT and the new silk and graphite midrange driver.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Legacy Dealers |
No Tomic we aren't just selling. and we do pay attention. If you notice we don't have your position, we like many different types of loudspeakers nor do we believe that any brand or any technology is intrinsically better than any other.
If you came to our shop and heard our Personas, our Legacys or Kef's we wouldn't tell you one was better than another.
Please tell me which performance sedan is better? A BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac?
All are valid choices all have strengths and weaknesses.
Again back to the studio discussion, yes Focal makes studio monitors as does ATC, and Genlec, please find one studio that uses Vandersteen if the speakers are so acurate you should be able to find studios using them correct?
We do know that a famous record producer uses Legacys and there are a few other studios as well, perfect pistons are perfect aren't they?
Your love of Vandy is commendable and they do make great speakers for some people, you think the reason we like Legacy or Paradigm is because we sell them, no sell them because we like them.
We have stated our position on Vandy many times before, they aren't our cup of tea, and for the money we have choices we feel are better suited for our values.
Good luck and enjoy your speakers.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Yes your point about tweeter height completely invalidates the entire company. Do you think that perhaps the decision to make the speaker stands a particular height which may be different from the manual is that many listeners may not like a taller stand based on the looks of the combo?
Sure lets compare facts with facts Kef is a $200-300 million dollar a year company Vandy does probably $10 million a year, lets be generous and say they are $20-30 million dollars a year, do you honestly think that Kef grew into one of the top loudspeaker companies of all times because they don't make a fantastic products?
Sure Vandy is all about the small guy vs the big boys like B&W, Focal, and KEF right, if you remember all of these companies were started by single men in similar circumstances, and all of these companies have been in business a very long time. yet these are the three biggest high end speaker manufacturers in the world and all three make all of their own drivers and have continued to evolve their designs and technologies and in some cases radically.
So please let not mix facts that market share means nothing.
Market share allows you to develop products which cost $4 million dollars to develop like the Kef Blades, I guess that all of the accolades that Kef has received on their loudspeakers also account for nothing.
Please stop your arguements that don't hold water.
The Kef Blades can easily stand up to a pair of Vandy 7's which you prefer is up to you, however, as we we pointed out before you can build a pretty darn nice system of Kef Blades plus amp, preamp, dac and cables for the $30k plus difference in price between the two loudspeakers.
Good night Tomic enjoy your purly pistonic perfect loudspeakers, we will suffer listening to our $30k Blades or Personas or Legacy Aeris too bad we will be suffering so much with these "inferior" products as we continue to chase our tails.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Yes Tomic we won’t claim to have designed any crossovers, we know what many people like and many people like Vandys and many people do not.
It is interesting for such a Vandy fan who proclaims to have three sets of them, not to always be mentioning your Quads, or Stages or Cornwalls, the only loudspeakers you keep on pushing religiously is Vandy remember your nice comment about any other non perfect piston loudspeaker being imperfect, and chasing our tails? guess that goes for the 1C, 2CE, 3A, the Treo, as they don't have perfectly pistonic drivers now do they?
Don’t need to read the LS 50’s white paper we have them and we have heard them compared to many other good loudspeakers.
Tney are way more transparent then a set of Vandy 1Cs, add a good subwoofer and you are good to go.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Trudat we have heard the Tektons they are an excellent value not our cup of tea.
We have been Coda dealers for years. |
Roxy it has nothing to do with us vs any other dealer.
We talk facts. We talk about opinions. To say one speaker is better than another is silly.
Which is better a BMW or a Mercedes?
We point out why we believe our products are competitive and a good value and why we carry those companies.
These discussions get nasty when someone makes a silly comment about why only one type of loudspeaker design is correct.
There are many valid loudspeaker designs which include time and phase aligned designs as well as non time and phase aligned designs.
You may prefer a Vandy that makes it better for that listener a guy who prefers a Wilson' a Magico Rockport or a Persona isnt wrong in there preference.
Lets agree on that.
Dave and Troy
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Yes Mr M totally correct all else is boat anchors.
The real issue is brand blinders.
There are always new and perhaps even better products entering the market such brand loyality prohibits entertaining looking at those products. |
Good for you Mr. M, please go and enjoy your loudspeakers
What we have found in 30 years of professional audio sales, as well as being an audiophile for 45 + years, that there is no universally correct product for everybody, therefore we sell multiple brands of loudspeakers, electronics and digital products.
And it is totally about setup we have seen good loudspeakers sound poor, and decent speakers sound great all depending on what you use with them, room acoustics, room size etc.
If you honestly don’t think that setup is everything Mr. M you are more than a novice. Changing a single cable can sometimes make a system come alive, same way with changing a dac or moving to a different set of electronics it is called synergy, and what sometimes works with one set of loudspeakers dosen’t work with another, sometimes changing a loudspeaker requires changing other things until you have the correct sound that you are looking for.
Dave and Troy
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Beetlemania, do you honestly think that anyone who is such a fervent Vandy guy or the same with the Tekton guys is going to ever fairly evaluate any thing else?
To these guys it is like a religion, if you notice we don't say any of our speakers are better just different and how they compare and in some cases these products are half the price, which means in the case of the Kef Blades you can get an entire system just for the price of the Vandy 7s and by many reviewers accounts the Blade is in that uber class of high value for dollar reference loudspeakers along with the Persona and Legacy lines, the same can be said with some of the Focals and Rockports and Wilsons and Magicos, that are also in the $30k price range.
To Mr M and by his own pronouncements Vandy is the only speaker unless he is joking that is definatly not the approach that is lets say fully balanced. Vandy may be his best choice but if you notice we don't say that any product we are selling is the best choice only that is a valid choice for these reasons
We stated it simply there is no perfect product for everyone, and not everyone is going to like the same choices you have made or that you enjoy.
Also as stated setup is everything the wrong electronics, cabling, digital can make any speaker sound good or bad if you are not in agreement with that simple fact you are certainly a novice.
Dave and Troy |
Mr M go back and actually read what we wrote about the Personas.
We said a set of 3f can compete with certain $20k sets of loudspeakers and the Persona 9H can compete with $60k wilsons we never said they were better
Nor do we say the Personas are for everyone which is why we also sell the Kef Blades and the Legacy Aeris.
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Yes Tomic like you point out Treo ct perfect piston tweeter non pistonic midrange. I guess perfect piston technology for lesser models and having two completely different materials makes for a coherent presentation?
Also the Bryston you use are not time and phase aligned yet in your last statement you find every other speaker that is not time and phase aligned is also trash
So which is it? If you enjoy your Apogee Stage not time and phase aligned with Klipsch Corwalls not time and phase aligned you do like these other types of loudspeakers.
Effusive praise on the MBL loudspeakers they use a 4th order Linkweitz reily crossover.
I guess out of phase trash can sound pretty darn good after all and a set of MBL can therefore also further the illusion of real music as well.
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Yes Mr. M. your Vandy Treo's do compete with Persona 3F, they would not compete with the Persona 9H, the Vandy 5A and the 7 would, if you prefer a more holographic soundstage, deeper bass, and overall much greater clarity the Personas 3F will outperform the Treos.
The word compete simply means that it is in the same league, a $32k set of Blades or Persona 9H can both sound fantastic and can compete with the performance of the Vandy 7 which you prefer will come down to what you like and the matching equipment.
If you prefer a warmer midrange, a more recessed top end, and a more defusive sound stage then the Treo's will be for you.
We prefer a much more transparent speaker and we find a huge advantage in having the tweeter and midrange drivers made out of the same material vs the Aluminium tweeter and composite trilaminate cone of the Treo,s or the Balsa wood CT tweeter and the composite trilaminate cone of the Treo CT.
You would say bright upon hearing the 3F,we would listen to your Treo's and go dull.
It comes down to personal prefererence, system matching and what you find musical.
I find your honesty refereshing "Would I buy a different brand? Of course I would if I felt it outperformed the Vandy's in areas I thought critical. But I don't see that happening anytime soon."
Personally Mr. M. we could name a few speakers some which we sell and some which we don't that you might just like a lot better than your Vandys.
Please enjoy your Vandys they are great speakers for many listners just the same way that Legacy and Personas, Focals, Wilsons, Rockports are great speakers for many others.
Dave and Troy
Mr. M. my computer is right in front of Reference demo Room One it is very easy to type out a retort while listening.
You might just want to hear one of our setups if you are in our neck of the woods to see for yourself just how good some of our products may sound to you, howerver, we doubt you would take us up on that offer.
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