yes so I continued the payout.
Cheers George
Cheers George
Which Class D Amplifier? PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrill or other???
I’m looking for a new amp & want Class D.
I’ve seen various brands mentioned, such as PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrel to name a few, but I’ve not heard any of them.
Which company is producing the best sounding Class D?
Which models should I be looking to demo?
Thanks
I’ve seen various brands mentioned, such as PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrel to name a few, but I’ve not heard any of them.
Which company is producing the best sounding Class D?
Which models should I be looking to demo?
Thanks
Showing 50 responses by georgehifi
singintheblues The only Class-D's so far that to use the more advanced GaN semiconductors for superior dead time and higher switching frequency that will give better sound. Are the Technics SE-R1 and the other is in your list, the Merrill Audio Element 118 monoblocks. It won't be long for this technology to filter down to more affordable Class-D amps so be patient. Cheers George |
The use of GaN semiconductors in class D amps, currently have not been established as providing definitively superior sound quality to the technology and semiconductors employed in the better class D amps available on the market today (typically Field Effect Transistors referred to as FETs).The GaN btw is a developed by the same guys that gave us the Power-Fet all those years ago, they sold the rights to it to the world. Once the GaN of their’s becomes affordable (with mass production), so that Putzy can get them, I guarantee you he will use use them. If your spend your money now on the present technology you may have an unsellable amp when the GaN technology takes off. I definitely don’t think there’s a need to wait for GaN semiconductor technology to ’trickle down’. As I believe you’ve already discovered, good class D performs exceptionally well.But it still does not compete with the best linear amps. Hypex NCore Bruno Putzeys, have publicly stated there’s no need for increasing the switching frequencies above current levels.Of course he does because he can't go any higher "yet", and there’s never any mention from him or you (not that that matters) of the output filter (that is the real problem) that has to rid the switching frequency from the audio band and the effects it has on the sound, right down to 3-5khz. I am waiting for Ralph Karsten to finish his Class D amp. If anyone can build a great amp, it’s him.He makes great tube OTL’s for a small sector that use speakers they are suited to. The Class-D is just going to be a money spinner for him, he buys the modules does a small mod so it can be said to be better, throws in in a box, and there’s his beer money. |
is a bit harsh and uncalled for.Really Bob, I've acknowledged his prowess with OTL's, but let see if the Class-D modules are his ground up design or someone else's aftermarket ones, with "signature tweaks". To the contrary, his amps are quite stable for a wide range of speakers.And you are talking about the OTL's they are very speaker specific, unless you throw a ban-daid "autoformer" fix on them, then that gives them a few more they can drive, but your better off getting an amp that can do the job properly in that case. Cheers George |
Class D has come a long way compared to a few years agoNo it hasn’t! Mark Levinson had a good expensive dig and tried to cure it’s evils, with the $50kusd !!! No.53 monoblocks, which had massive series output filters to rid the switching frequency from it’s outputs, but they them selves bought a different set of problem to the table compared to all the filters others manufacturers use. https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no53-reference-monoblock-power-amplifier-specifica... https://www.stereophile.com/images/1212levin.side.jpg Again even with these, it’s the mid/tops that had ? on them, but as per usual with Class-D the bass was great. " They resolved a remarkable amount of genuine detail but were harmonically threadbare, sounded somewhat hard and mechanical on top, and had a hazy overlay just below that. The bass was fast, lean, taut, and well damped—rhythm’n’pacing were among the No.53’s strongest suits. But overall, the nature of the sound induced listening fatigue. I rarely listened for more than an hour at a time, which for me is unusual." The only "real" advancement of Class-D has been the introduction of the new GaN transistor which Technics introduced in to their SE-R1 and Merrill Audio is now doing with their Element 118, these promise to lower dead time and have a greater far reduction of the switching frequency with the filter without affecting the audio band. Cheers George |
I have heard the ML NO.53 a couple of times,So have I, and the problems in the upper mids and tops while a bit different are there, they are also in similar way in all other class-D's I've heard. I have not heard the Technics SE-R1 nor the Merrill Element 118, but the mids/highs areas of concern with Class-D that many hear, seem to be the areas they say they have addressed, which makes me very hopeful they are leading the way, to make Class-D hiend. |
As far as warm up is concerned, other than Bourbon has taken over and everything in the room is just better. +1 and more!! Amps are adjusted and calibrated at the factory for peak performance after a short 1/2-1hr warm when they've reached operating temperature, even tubes, to say they sound better after hours and hours is a furphy. Yes electrolytic capacitors like to be formed/polarized with a little time from new, this again is only a short time, and not every time it's turned on. Cheers George |
Give it up Eric, be happy with yours, that you say you can’t hear any problems with it. Stop trying to convince yourself by trying to convert others that can hear problems with it at the moment.https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-future-of-audio-amplification/post?postid=1682049#1682049 |
Knowing Ralph, he is going to surprise us all. Maybe, if he’s got the new GaN technology Like Merrill Audio has, and he's keeping it quiet till it’s released, you never know. https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1682049 Cheers George |
Damn George, for some one who doesn’t like Class DDamn yourself sunshine. I’ve always said it’s the future and has always had better bass, just needed something like these GaN transistors to cure it’s ill’s in the upper mids and highs, which it’s always had from day one and never changed. Just went off on different tangents but never got down to the root of the problems, too much dead time and too low switching frequency with output filter effect getting down into the audio band, and these GaN’s address all these ill’s. |
You just don’t want people to like Class D.Really!!!! I’m pushing Class-D with this newer technology, because the old technology that’s basically been the same since it started (save for some input detours) is flawed. Reason why all detractors ALWAYS find the mid/highs are not right. You are the one every time I bring it up that is putting **** on this new GaN technology, possibly maybe hoping it won’t advance every time I’ve talked about it, what is it, do you have monitory interest in present day Class-D, because you sure do push the old, never the new. I want it to advance so the mids and highs get the same respect the bass has, then I’ll get 2 pairs to take the place of my inefficient boat anchors. We now have GaN users Merrill, Technics and AGD Production. And as GaN in an email said " We are unable to reveal due to the Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with our customers. https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/agd-production-vivace-gantube-monoblock-ampli... Cheers George |
This guy knew what was coming a couple of years ago, even though not one amp was yet built using EPC's GaN technology. https://audiophilereview.com/cd-dac-digital/why-well-soon-be-living-in-a-class-d-world.html Cheers George |
they are the real deal in rendering an authentic 3D soundstage of the correct timbre pace and dynamics. I believe it, it has the GaN technology. Probably could have been below $10k if he didn’t use that marketing "tube thing", may have been even better sounding without tube pins in the signal path. Bet there’s a cheaper MkII without the tube thing soon. Even he said "Company founder Alberto Guerra admitted that he did it largely for the sake of visual aesthetics. “Otherwise a class-D amp just looks like a box,” he said. The amp uses gallium nitride MOSFET output transistors, which Guerra says switch faster and allow the amp to have a noise floor in the -120 to -130dB range. Power is rated at 200W into 4 ohms." |
Here's another press release, this time from
Murata Manufacturing Co's (subsidiaries P-Semi) Murata is one of the larger semiconductor manufactures and suppliers. https://www.psemi.com/newsroom/press-releases/545048-peregrine-s-new-fet-driver-brings-industry-s-fa... Cheers George |
guidocoronaYour welcome, if you can get around the 6550 tube envelope bs around this, here's another one at a much cheaper price than Merrill and Technics using GaN technology. https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/agd-production-vivace-gantube-monoblock-ampli... Cheers George |
No interest in listening but happy to pass along unsubstantiated fact by way of heresay" From what I have heard" last time I checked, that meant he heard them. And even if it "was" hearsay, I would Google if I were you, as many have said it. And I just noticed below, he owns Anthem Statement monoblocks, Class-D’s so "troll your self steve" |
I’ll consider your response promising. Like I said before, when this GaN technology becomes more affordable, and looking that this latest stuff coming out it’s not too far off. Those that were negative towards all the pro’s it had to offer from owners of the current hamstrung Class-D’s, those owners will be the first ones sell their older technology ones to purchase the newer GaN Class-D’s. As they will not want to be stuck with them, as they’ll be unsellable for a reasonable price. It could be compared to when silicon transistor amps came out, the older germanium transistor amps couldn’t even be given away. Cheers George |
One day maybe, when the price (not looks) of the performance of the SE-R1 comes down to the the price or lower of the SU-G30. GaN technology seems to be lit, just needs more semi conductor manufactures like Motorola, AD, Texas, ect ect. to purchase patent rights to make them from EPC (GaN) That’s how they (Lidow and co.) did it when they sold the rights to the power mosfet all those years ago, and if you remember the same scenario is going on here. Initial price of amps using them were very high then they crashed because so many manufacturers bought the rights to make them. BTW looking at the heatsinks in the SU-G30 above, that section is the GaN amp, it may have higher than todays 600khz switching because it’s using these heatsinks, as EPC said to me if left at 600khz there is no need for any heat sinking on any of the GaN boards, so it maybe higher. Could be a great sounding little amp, I can think maybe Quad ESL57’s would be nice as they can’t take to much wattage, or any > 90db speakers Cheers George |
Great find. GaN technology for $4k, and this Technics SU-G30 is also a complete network integrated amplifier. Seems like it doesn’t use the 1.5mhz higher switching frequency that the $20k Technics SE-R1 uses, but does use a hybrid power supply, not all smp, and by just using the GaN technology it’s probably front of all it’s competitors anyway. https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1837138-technics-sug30-network-amplifier.jpg What one reviewer thought Cheers George |
I hope their use continues to trickle down to even more affordable amps as George predicted (good call). It seems they rather quickly went from only being used in the $50K Technics to these new AGD monos at $15K/pair. Still too steep for me but I can wait.. Yes EPC (who are the GaN developers) are looking for it to be used also in portable devices, if so that will cause a quite a kerfuffle also. Looking forward to how all this progresses Cheers George |
How long is it likely to be before GaN is in mid priced gear?That Technics SU-G30 which is a server as well as an integrated is the cheapest so far at $3900, but it's only 50w into 8ohm and 100 into 4ohm so not for everyone. So if that was a poweramp only, you would have to say high 2's. As I said I did contact EPC to find what and who are bringing them out, seems there are several more brands on top of what we now know. Cheers George |
It will be several years before this GaN class D audio amplifier IP technology becomes truly affordable. I don’t believe so, EPC have already sold these to several Class-D manufacturers direct, and Digikey are already selling it, it doesn’t take much, just demand for a major semiconductor manufacturer to step in and purchase the right to make them for the masses, it’s like the Power Mosfet all over again, which they developed, and became the norm in no time at all. https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/ganfet-gallium-nitride/53212 Or you can buy the complete Evaluation Board and put it in a box. https://www.digikey.com/products/en?%20WT.z_cid=sp_917_0110_buynow&site=us&lang=en&mpart... Cheers George |
But right now we have 600 watt a channel mosfet class D dual mono amps that sound great for a mere $2000 (yours truly coming very soon).Now that's an ad to promote ones own goods, and the rest of the post trying to put others off getting or waiting for Class-D with GaN technology, and to purchase their's instead. Isn't that called shilling/canvassing or is there another word for it? Cheers George |
I’m now using wyred 4 sound mono blocks, and they’re just okay. They don’t add anything untoward, but don’t have much in the way of punch or bass kick I like to hear.These are Ice powered Class-D’s also, you stated below they were bright also, what speakers do you own, maybe that new GaN Technics SU-G30 could be good with them? Anyone with opinions on Wyred4sound’s monoblocks? I recently bought three, and they sound bright without much bass. Anyone? Here is the Technics SU-G30 review.
Cheers George |
I am not saying the latest 500K mosfet class D amps are state of the artGood, because they’re not current technology, will not allow them to be, but GaN technology looks like it might. BTW: Nice last paragraph sermon, that should get a few more buying your soon to be released Class-D’s made from Ice modules? http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_1200_amplifier/IMAG001.JPG |
worldwidewholesales Hi, I'm very interested, which ones are these GaN models you are testing? Where do you post up the test results, graphs? Or is this subjective listening to them? Cheers George |
that I completely fail to detect any of the sonic shortcomings that georgehifi claims exist on my amps due to traditional FET transistors, the switching frequency being too low and the filter used to remove this switching frequency being of poor quality.That’s your opinion with your hearing, there are countless others that have the opposite opinion to you. The rest of your bs post is just flaming and has no relevance. |
Again https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/88/ec/1b88ec3004d2072c83a13a03cf7a8d05.png Like I said, it’s owners like you that will be the first to jump into this new GaN technology once you realize what you’ve gotten used and missing out on. |
Georgehifi has been spewing class D disinformation for yearsThis deserves a retort, just for your information, I was the one who showed and posted all about this new GaN technology with it’s higher switching frequency and better dead time into this forum years ago. "YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH" I agree that the newer and faster GaN transistors may allow class D performance to get even better. Interesting times for audio.Hedging your bets there sunshine with that last statement, spoken like a true owner, seller or manufacture of present day Class-D technology, bet your one of the first to jump ship. |
Again with insults just after celander told everyone to cut out the personal attacks. If I have posted up links that are not correct in what's presented, please counter them with the corrected link/s that prove them wrong, instead of just attacking someone personally. |
I’ve been using a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks BTW Look at your D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblock Class-D modules https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-piqyzidq4i/images/stencil/1000x1000/products/122/432/M3a-1500M_Top_I... and compare them to the Chinese Sanway/pascal modules https://image.made-in-china.com/202f0j00nCGQFEOLEdzb/Professional-Line-Array-Audio-Speaker-Digital-A... and here https://cnsanway.en.made-in-china.com/product/JXPQnMZEIrWR/China-Digital-DSP-Amplifier-Module-for-Ac... Also use in the Rowland Continuum 2 pics and Sanway pics I showed here. https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1684946 Like I said these modules were available for $100 each in lots of 10 on Alibaba |
Heatsinks are required, even for Gan devices switching at lower speedsAnd yes Gan devices have their own heat pad underneath which is sweated to the ground plane of the PCB. But that will be in every case that they are used in, your not going to twist it any other way.!!!! https://ibb.co/jTWd9nx I tend to believe the manufacture of the board, EPC and it’s designer Steve Colino, who stated only heatsinking is required on these GaN devices if the switching frequency is raised. Not by what you say. And from Merrill Audio who use the higher switching speed " Internally the Element 118 Power Amplifier Monoblock PCB boards are manufactured to the highest excellence available and further engineered for sustaining a most stable temperature distribution. Using 8 pounds of pure copper per monoblock, the highly refined heat distribution system maintains a steady temperature environment on the PCB boards, a condition absolutely essential for linear operation." |
Heatsinks are required, even for Gan devices switching at lower speeds, regardless of what EPC allegedly said.This is not correct. You can buy your own EPC GaN boards from Digikey, and yes they operate with no heatsink. Because EPC’s Steve Colino said to me, (and I posted up his email), they are at 600khz switching speed, you can increase that to 1 or 1.5mhz as Steve said, but you will have to use a heatsink on them. https://www.digikey.com/products/en?%20WT.z_cid=sp_917_0110_buynow&site=us&lang=en&mpart... |
http://www.ti.com/power-management/gallium-nitride/overview.html Here we go hopefully, one of the majors have got the rights to make it, watch Class-D take off now, and finally compete with the best of Linear amps in the mids and highs and beat it in the bass as it always did. Cheers George |
George, looks like you made my point. As Steve Colino of GaN (EPC) has said below, there is no need for any heatsink on the GaN transistors if they are used at todays switching speed. Only if you use the option to raise that switching speed to gain the extra sound quality, then there is the need for a heat sink to be mounted to the GaN transistors, as in the Merrill and Technics case. Once again you twist things, "it’s not a good look" if you try to put s**t on this new technology while your trying to release your own Class-D amps.
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/epc/EPC9106/917-1090-ND/5036827 " THERMAL CONSIDERATIONS With this high efficiency, the EPC9106 design allows for the complete removal of any classical or historical heat sink requirement. This elimination of the heat sink also reduces the potential contribution to radiated EMI/EMC emissions. |
Looks like GaN is starting to take off. Not only Texas Instruments (Burr Brown) who are into the manufacturer of GaN transistor technology, but it seems Analog devices now also. GaN is already being developed into Class-D audio by a few amp manufacturers now, with great feedback on it's sound, compared to the older technology. Analog Devices getting into the manufacture of the GaN technology also https://www.analog.com/en/applications/technology/gan.html Cheers George |
And yes, wide spread availability of the GaN-FET’s will be needed to drive costs down.Yes correct, as I said. (I’m hearing an echo??) But GaN-FET modules designed for Microwave and RF applications will not benefit HEA class D applications. Just saying...But it means they have the rights and can do in the future hopefully ones for audio as well. Just saying!! (again that blasted echo) https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/emojione/151/dizzy-face_1f635.... Cheers George |
Here is the PDF to the eGaNAMP2016 GaN amp. Steve Colino said if one wants even better sound from it, you can add a heatsink to those GaN fets and take the switching frequency up to 1.536mhz. https://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/thirdparty/eGaNAMP2016_Consumer-123115.pdf Cheers George |
Just get the GaN Development board or eGaNAMP 2.1 Evaluation Kit Stereo Evaluation board already made up, with everything inputs outputs, give it +/- 32v power and put it in a box. I believe Digikey has them, and many others. https://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/thirdparty/EAS_eGaN_2.0-Channel_EvalKit-010116.pdf Cheers George |
Here is a an email back to me from the US company "ClassDAudio" regarding the use of the new GaN Fet technology in any of their completed amps or very well priced Class-D kits they make, that use linear power supplies!! https://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits.html "Hi George, Cheers George |
The manufacturer trying to confuse people with the "tube" doesn't pass.It's not really a tube, just the bottle of one with the GaN module stuffed into it. I think he regrets doing it as he did say, "Company founder Alberto Guerra admitted that he did it largely for the sake of visual aesthetics. “Otherwise a class-D amp just looks like a box,” he said. The amp uses gallium nitride MOSFET output transistors, which Guerra says switch faster and allow the amp to have a noise floor in the -120 to -130dB range. Power is rated at 200W into 4 ohms." Cheers George |
scratchaThe Class-D Audio (which is USA made and sold) is one to look out for as they say they will have their new models of the GaN technology Class-D amps coming out soon, don’t know if they will have it in kit form as well like their other products. Chers George |
Just please refrain from passing judgement on people who feel otherwise.... You need to get off your horse, I don’t think for one minute guidocorona that clearthink was passing judgement on to you or anyone at all!! He was giving his own personal thoughts as he stated said "I personally find" read it!!!. As for your prima-donna resume, just because you have been a "self paised" jack of all trades musical, does not mean you were a master at any, or can even hear well either. |
You are passing judgement on GuidoReally! again!! If you bother to read yet again, which you have a problem with it seems comprehending, clearthink was expressing his opinions only, what he said quote: " I personally find". In no way was he trying to force his "judgement" onto "G" You need to take a "shill break" and get off threads that have nothing to do with what your selling in the near future. |