To the first part of your question, there are amp makers and makers of other equipment that use aftermarket fuses. I say this as I've read lots of reviews and came across some makes that use them. They are a small subset of this industry, and no, I can't locate the reviews but I wouldn't mislead you on this.
To the second part of your question, I'd start with something like PADIS fuses. They are a German brand who's fuses sell for about $25 a piece. I've found them to be a big step up from the HiFi Tuning Silver Star fuses that I've tried that retailed for about double the price of the PADIS.
PADIS also makes Furutech fuses which sell for more than their own. I can't say how they compare to other makes like SR Reds and Blacks, AMR fuses, or Beewax fuses but they have that low price of entry point which should make it rather painless if you want to experiment with them.
The improvements they made to my system weren't subtle and are well worth it, for me. You can get them by googling PADIS fuses and it will lead you to a Canadian site or the German site. Either way, they are sourced from Germany. If you use the direct German site, there is a drop down box for other languages to make it easy. One is an eBay site and the other is an amazon site. The vendor I used is 'diy-acoustics-24.' Shipping should take anywhere from 4 days to 8, depending on when you put your order in.
This is controversial, but there is a directionality to them, so try them both ways. One way will definitely sound better than the other. And as for a dealer decrying the efficacy of fuses, what else would you expect?
He would have to admit that what you bought isn't built to a price point or that his work can't be improved upon. Let you ears decide and if you have thin skin, don't tell anyone if it improves your system. 😀
All the best,
Nonoise
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With regards to at least PADIS fuses, the CE rating allows them to be used anywhere in Europe as they meet any and all applicable standards for safety. There is no 3rd party evaluation like UL does in the US but UL would like to do it (for a fee) as they state on their website.
For me, if Europe is satisfied with their rating system for all the products they make, it’s good enough for me. They sell worldwide and no complaints so far. I can’t speak for SR fuses but I’ve yet to hear of PADIS fuses failing like the SR fuses mentioned.
All the best,
Nonoise
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A fuse is not a wire. A fuse is used in place of a wire, or interrupts a trace, on a circuit board. We can all agree that a wire or trace should be of very high quality/purity to sound it's best.
A fuse is an over current device engineered to melt, thus breaking the circuit. It's not made to "sound" good. The end caps are usually made of zinc, tin, and aluminum or alloys of them.
The internal wire is usually made of nichrome (nickel, chromium, iron, etc.). It's sacrificial in nature and design, much like MOVs in a surge protector. Why would any "engineer" see it any other way?
Enter modern high fidelity. Would anyone here, in their right mind, use any of the aforementioned metals in their speaker cables? Their interconnects? Their power cables? Their RCA jacks? Their speaker terminals? I think not.
The fuse is a choke point. Nothing happens unless it gets past the fuse.
As someone else has pointed out on another thread, about 85% of what goes on in an amp has a "leg" in what comes after the fuse.
Not all fuses deal with the incoming AC. Some, like the ones in my SACD are in the signal path. There's no way in hell I'm not experimenting with a better made fuse. One that uses rhodium plated copper, copper and nothing else, such as the PADIS fuses. $25 apiece. Better pass through, though not as good as no fuse but not as flat out horrible as some of the cheaper fuses out there.
Some here have said that they just swap them out on a regular basis and show pictures of tortured, aged fuses. A simple look at Wiki says that there should be no damage from minor, harmless surges of current or oxidize or change behavior even after years of service and yet we have proof that the cheaply made ones do just that.
I think what we're witnessing here is a very conservative backlash against progress. The founding tenet of conservatism is stop, not so fast.
Well, that was many years ago since the advent of aftermarket fuses and it took a while for me to catch on to the "trend" but now, after observing it firsthand, I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Hearing is believing and it's so very easy to hear.
As for any argument about "it's just a 1/4" piece of wire. C'mon now. No matter how small and insignificant you think it is, it just messed with the current or signal, and now it's going from one amplification device to another until it gets to the outputs. I'd rather have as pure an original current flow or signal as possible, instead of a corrupted one.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@toddverrone, I wish I could be as succinct as you. 😃 |
@kosst_amojan,
I believe you're right. As to why they don't do it is beyond me. As I recall, Ralph (@atmasphere), uses something better than fuses in his designs. Until they start doing it on a regular basis, I'm going to stick with the better made PADIS fuse as it does sound better to my ears.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@willgolf,
I was told by @auxinput to expect some ups and downs for the first 200 hours. All was great for about the first 20 hrs and then it was like, 'what happened?' It was then that I put the CD player on repeat for the night and since then, it's just been getting better and better. That was with my SACD player. With my integrated, I haven't noticed anything but improvements. It could be that I keep in on all the time so even without playing, it's burning in.
As to the owner of Raven Audio not hearing any improvements, I can't comment on the matter. I know what I'm hearing and I'm not delusional.
Keep in mind that there are many here who've heard improvements, commented on them, and then keep off these kinds of threads because of the acrimony some display when pushing their views.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Granted, on a scale that encompasses all we hear when listening, the differences can be stated as small. My Marantz Reference components are no slouch in design and construction. Ken Ishiwata is a well respected designer and he went deep into the design to extract the best sound possible.
Having said that, that small difference is in the unmasking of subtle cues and background hash that obscures what's in the music. The result is a fuller and expanded version of what lies hidden. Now, nothing is holding back the full potential of the amp (or source).
It's like that last click on the focus ring of a camera. A small click, sure, but look what it just did.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Ah, you must be from Missouri. |
Without experience, there is no learning. First hand, empirically derived, served fresh daily, as long as you're willing to consume it. 🍎 |
The laws of physics can't be broken. If the rationale came in the form of a memo, it came from the marketing department. Fuses do not make a difference. Do you want to believe science or do you want to believe marketing? It's up to you to decide which way to go. Where, in the "laws of physics", does it state that fuses don't make a difference? I've read that here so many times and yet no one can site it. Did that come from your marketing department? |
That isn't even remotely funny, and shows a tone deaf, low level appreciation for this hobby.
Naysayers, you can't go through life using conjecture, insults, snide remarks, and a low and transparent level of sophistry and have any credibility.
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@koost_amojan,
This is beginning to sound like the "all cables sounds the same" argument, or "all amps, designed correctly, sound the same" argument.
They measure the same, or close enough, so how can you hear a difference?
Are you in that camp? Another lost cause. As for your remote diagnostic abilities as to my being easily fooled, all I have to say is you missed your calling. The CIA could have used you for remote viewing, spying on the Russians. I hear they pay well.
As to the ability to measure black holes, if NASA, with all their resources, decided to investigate the differences between fuses, they's find it in the first round of testing.
As for measuring, I had to turn down my volume by 2-3db because after changing directions, it was too loud. Also, I had to turn off the treble boost and go back to 'flat' since the highs were now restored. That was measured by my ears. Delusion had no part in it. That's all I needed to convince myself. What have you done?
All the best,
Nonoise |
@teo_audio,
Bravo!
By the way, how many patties can I get out of half my brain?
Apparently, I don't need it anymore, and I loves me a good burger. 🤔 |
@willgolf, @jl35,
No matter what is posted as of late, brings out people with issues. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Consider it a given in these times.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@almarg
Thanks for the compliment. Yes, it was me who said that I had to turn the volume down 2-3db and it was not a misperception. My normal listening level is -37db. That was with both the HIFi Tuning Fuses and the PADIS fuses in, the wrong way.
Both times that I reversed them, I had to turn it down to -39db to -40db as it was just too forceful, i.e., too loud. The only difference between the two fuses were that with the HiFi fuses, the highs were too rolled off and I had to boost the treble 2-3db just to hear things in a somewhat proper perspective. That was rectified once I reversed them. All settings returned to a flat, direct setting.
With the PADS fuses, that was not the case. It was the same with the volume, however. I now listen at -39 to -40db all the time while for the two years before that, it was at least set to -37db. That's the god to honest truth. As to what other variable it can be attributed to, I haven't the foggiest. What I did and what I heard as a result, with my eyes, my hands, and my ears, is that not only do the fuses improve the sound, they are directional.
I'm not inclined to pop open the units and get out my Rat Shack meter to measure the SPLs with test tones or quick and slow readings, going back and forth with the fuses. Been there, done that, twice already, just trying out the fuses. It never occurred to me to document the process as I never expected some of these responses. Someone else can do it. I know what I've heard. I'm not delusional. I try to respect those who disagree as long as they're open minded (like you, Al 😀) and I hope this lays things to rest, because as far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Really??? 2-3db difference in absolute volume because of changing the direction of the mains fuse? I’m stunned and speechless.
Cheers George All you need to do is to try it. That's all anyone who doubts this has to do. Until then, you're just knocking your head against the wall. I get it. People who are deep into this hobby and "know it" inside out, have overlooked something very simple: the fuse. Imagine all the amp builders/designers out there, laboring away at their craft, scratching their heads as to why, despite reading all the manuals, following the schematics, they end up with something that doesn't sound quite right. So they get inventive. More NFB here, less there. More shunts and chokes. Tinker here, tinker there. Change this, change that. And like a child of their own, no one can tell them it can be improved. Then along comes this schome who has a hard time putting a battery in a remote, who swaps out a fuse and all of a sudden, maybe they didn't have to do this, or that, to get better sound. I get it. All the best, Nonoise |
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@trelja
Thanks, but I wished I could've found a blushing emoji face instead of this one 😇. |
It just dawned on me that the OP's going to swap out a fuse in his amp and my mentioning of the 2-3db difference was after replacing the 4 fuses in my SACD player. It was just out of boredom that I reversed them and got the results.
It was in the heat of this "discussion" that @georgehifi stated his doubt about a difference in direction making that much difference with a mains fuse. Just wanted to clear that up lest another can 'o worms opens when the OP reports back. When I changed the fuse in my integrated, it went in in the correct direction. The sound improved so there was no need to reverse it.
All the best,
Nonoise
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@almarg
I see what you're getting at. Lest anyone else (other than Al, who knows) confuse the matter of in-room SPLs and volume setting, what I was referring to is volume settings. How that translates to in room SPLs, I can't say. What I can say is now there's too much pressure on my ears using the older volume setting.
It's not an in-your-face aggressive experience (i.e. brightness, glare, etc.), just too much ear pressure. I even feel it more with my body, like sitting too close at a concert (oh, the foggy memories). The images seem too large as well.
Am I hearing too much? That would be silly for me to say but my comfort level is now at the lower setting.
All the best,
Nonoise
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@willgolf,
How to sum it up....
Yes to what you just asked. That, and you can go back and read my other posts on it. From your question, I feel like all the air just went out of this thread.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I just scoured the net and came across some older posts on other sites and the only difference I read was that one is cryo'd and the other is not.
It wasn't clear which one is. There's no mention of silver used on the box the PADIS comes in. Just high purity copper, OFC, non-magnetic metals and rhodium. Time will tell.
All the best,
Nonoise
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@dlcockrum
Missed your post while I composed mine.
The humor helps. 👍
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@willgolf
I’m glad you’re having a positive experience with the PADIS fuse. But, and there’s always a but, remember what @auxinput stated about how the fuse takes a while to settle in. @davidpritchard is right as well. You’ll experience some ups and downs but they’ll be short lived and with each step, it just gets better and better. 😀
As for correct direction, the big tip off they were in the wrong direction for me was the rolled off highs. If they are like you remember them and everything else is better, then odds are you have them in the right direction.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Howling at the moon,
Spitting into the wind.
Much ado about nothing.
Tilting at windmills.
Some naysayers seem to share these common traits.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Sometimes it's better to go out with a whimper than a bang, to do go gently into that good night.
I just got off the phone with a wonderful gent from The Cable Co. and he spoke of how there are 3 different levels of fuses out there. They mostly come from Germany and the most basic, throw away fuses are used in mass market products, including audio gear. They vary widely in value despite the ratings which is why they don't blow when they should.
The mid level fuses are the ones being used and marketed by the audio companies (PADIS, SR, AH, HiFi, etc.) which have much tighter tolerances, which is why they blow when they should. Imagine all the gear out there drawing more current than they should due to the poor tolerances of the standard fuses they come with. It gives me the shudders. Now imagine if all the gear out there were designed with at least a mid level fuse instead of one that doesn't perform as intended. Big pause there as well.
All discussions of sonics aside, I want to have a fuse that blows when it should and not allow higher levels of current than the design calls for. Those who have argued that standard fuses are good enough need to reevaluate their positions if their gear is important to them. Going up a value or two with a mid level fuse can be considered pushing it but having a fuse allow it on a continual basis while deluding one into thinking it's not is not kosher.
The highest grade fuses are for vital computer, defense and medical applications. I'd love to get my hands on those but they are unavailable to folk like us. Like the gent from The Cable Co. told me, just try them for yourselves and if you don't like them, return them.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@geoffkait , I agree with your assumptions regarding fuses and their intended uses, which originally didn't include audio. I think it was just a matter of time before some forward thinking audiophiles took a good, hard look at what's out there and capitalized on it.
Good for them. I wish I'd done it. 😖
It will forever be argued that the markup is too high but some these fuses and are seeming to be purpose built for audio applications while some are just rebranding. They're not all alike and some perform better than others so it's threads like this that help to sort things out.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@mapman ,
He said the audiophile fuse made a noticeable improvement but he uses only the better made than standard ceramic fuses.
And yes, it has been asserted that not all fuses are the same but I don't recall any naysayer saying that, but rather the ones who've tried them.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Thanks for the link @lak
Kinda says it all, doesn't it? |
Well, the audiophile fuses I use are ISO certified to be used in any country. And they are not uber expensive like some other brands.
In fact, I'm getting a parcel with some new ones hopefully by this weekend. They're made in Germany, sold in China, are gold plated silver fuses with 72 hrs of cryo treatment and 48 hrs of Quantum treatment and they go for a whopping $35 apiece. And they are ISO certified as well.
I'll let everyone know how I feel after trying them out.
All the best,
Nonoise |
So now we have evidence that was routinely decried as lacking that some engineers know that fuses make a difference and now it's turning into a meme that we need engineer naysayers to battle it out.
This is a fool's errand. It looks like anytime something valid is brought up, it's pushed to the side and new demands are made.
It wouldn't surprise me that there's a whole bunch of engineers who know that fuses make a difference but choose to stay mum on the topic.
With social media being what it is, what's to prevent trolls from following and slandering engineers on their products sites, personal forum sites, and the like? I can easily see some here doing just that, and they'd do with with glee. I, for one, wouldn't want them to follow me anywhere save for this site. It's bad enough as it is.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Again, proof that once something valid is established, it's off on another laughable tangent we go. Where, in that video, did Paul McGowan pander to snake oil? Or Steve McCormack for that matter? |
The same people who posit that removing a fuse and replacing it also say that rotating the fuse in it’s holder can achieve the same result.
Did anyone double blind that doosey of a claim?
Think about it. From head on, a fuse is officially round. The fuse holder arms are shaped one way only. How could rotating it extract a more significant hold on the fuse? If it could, it would be of such an insignificant amount as to amount to none at all. We’re talking many places to the right of .0 and I’m almost certain it would be a much greater difference than what is measured when fuse direction is changed.
And yet, we are told to believe that that is more believable than changing direction.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@hifiman5
Yes, I was aware of that but that argument (which has it's own fallacies) usually comes with it's partner: rotating the fuse.
As to the claim that some microscopic piece of junk will impact a change of sound in a place where they also claim it's impossible to have a change of sound gives me pause. It's a prefect example of "whataboutism".
If that is so, then why don't I hear the same level of improvement when taking out and reinserting speaker cables and interconnects? I do hear a very slight improvement when I clean them but it is in no way of the level of improvement heard when dealing with aftermarket fuses.
I appreciate the clarification though. 👍
All the best,
Nonoise |
Do you think it was due to the cheap tin alloy of the end caps in the standard fuses you encountered? Also, what grade of fuse holder?
The ones in my Marantz Reference series gear are high quality silver plated and so are the aftermarket fuses I use and I've never encountered such a thing. I guess you get what you pay for.
All the best,
Nonoise |
As for:
1) I have tried it twice with my first set of aftermarket fuses and did not feel the need to do it multiple times. The first time I did it seemed to be enough for me but after the long and contentious posts, I tried it again.
Same results. I know what I hear. With my second set of aftermarket fuses, I quickly ascertained the correct direction by reversing them only once. No need to do anything further. I owe no one here a rigorous set of attempts to justify anything once I hear a clear and definite distinction.
2) I tried to rotate the fuses but they are held tightly in place and are difficult to do so. I've stated this in another thread. Once again, how does rotating a circle in a semi fixed holder change the amount of surface contact? I smell a red herring.
3) As for Warren Gehl, good for him. He knows that fuse direction is important but I question his reasons for rotating them.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Mapman, I believe you but without offending anyone, I feel it has to do with the nature and quality of products made in those times. Fuses were fuses and fuse holders were fuse holders. Not much variance required in something that, at the time, was considered not that important but in the end, was, as evidenced by your tweaking the fuses in their holders. 😀
All the best,
Nonoise |
Do you think that that tiny bit of difference remains the same once it's been rectified, modified, deep fried and otherwise? Seems to me that that small and insignificant difference cited plays a larger role once it goes through all the various permutations before it comes out.
Jitter, no matter how small, distorts more and more as it goes along as does any kind of distortion. It's funny how some are now admitting that there is a difference but it just simply can't explain why the sound changes yet that very same criteria most certainly applies to everything else. You can't have it both ways.
All the best,
Nonoise |
What color is the air on your planet? |
We don't know you keep doing it either. It is a weird compulsion.
Stop it.
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Not sure what provoked all the personal insults and attacks, but I'm not dealing with it.
Maybe starting off by calling people liars would be good place to start looking. Pontificating from your high horse under the delusion that anyone here looks up to you could be another. Just saying. All the best, Nonoise |
