Why is the snake oil topic closed?

.....and we’re off again !!!

Because a few 'Goners were plain rude! Started with "foggythink" and went downhill from there...
this thread will be closed also if folks  continue with that same attitude, OP sets an example of such

Yeah there were some snarky posts.  Ironically though the posts were getting more serious and polite as it went on.  

war does not a good forum make.

If you allow the loud and the rude, the forceful, the pressuring, the insulting and bickering..and so on..if you allow such types and behaviour into a bar and allow them to do as they please..they will form a clique and be of that behavior to all other patrons.

Sooner rather than later, the population of the restaurant will be just those few overly forceful and rude argumentative types.

Everyone else, the others who were the regular patrons, will be gone.

20 regular mudslingers and a thousand missing patrons.

It’s a simple equation.

The other thing needed is a REAL forum format. With real moderators and a real force, when it comes to eliminating those who desire to force their opinions on others.

The forum, the business, and the multi billion dollar model itself is dedicated to the people who hear differences in gear of all kinds and types...

Anything else is against the entire reason for the the audio equipment to even exist.

Any one who denigrates another for saying they hear a difference in a thing, whatever it may be...and that person continues to denigrate and attack, even after one or two warnings...needs to be eliminated from the forum membership. And their IP banned. End of story.

so much name calling...it's an old debate,  dozens of almost identical threads over the years,  but seems to have gotten much nastier lately...

How ’bout a group hug and singing a few verses of Kumbaya? 🎼

Some over complicate things. It's simple...if like I, you believe there are differences, spend your money, share your experiences with others, and enjoy. If you don't believe there are difference, don't spend your money and enjoy.

It's the way of the world. Turns out we're not all the civilized after all. Too many people get off on being rude, offensive and attract like minded individuals. 

Everything's being viewed through a tribal lens. Polarization is preferred over connection. Contrarians seek the higher ground. Grudges held as a deed for intent to use another time. 

Has anyone noticed how this place has been getting closer and closer to a YouTube forum? This used to be a nice neighborhood. I noticed it a couple of years ago at other sites, usually related to audio mags, where in the comments section, there was an unfortunate amount of profanity and derision being bandied about. I've even seen casual profanity and unwelcome slang on watch sites. I expected car sites to attract the knuckle draggers but watch sites?

Forget my previous lament about the neighborhood: it's the whole planet. We're being dumbed down at an alarming pace. 

All the best,
Nonoise

...because tpreaves prayer was answered.

"Please God make it stop." - tpreaves  11-21-2017 3:46pm

Leastways, I hope so.

Forget my previous lament about the neighborhood: it’s the whole planet. We’re being dumbed down at an alarming pace.

To annihilate a thing so it cannot return or rebuild or know what it was and what was taken... is to annihilate the living memory of it, the social/cultural flow and the minds which can carry it.

What do you see happening in the west, in general, right now?

It's the oldest tactic in the book, being used on the internet/information era. Slow going, but it can still be done.

Maybe the moderators got tired of the wind bags telling people what they hear or don't hear based on their perceptions and pulled their soap boxes based on that.

The snake oil thread isn’t closed, it’s here.
There was a troll thread that was closed earlier today. I think this was it here.

if you miss it, read one of the many older threads on this,  they're all the same...

The snake oil thread isn’t closed, it’s here.

The thread is in fact closed, although it has not been deleted, meaning that the response box and consequently the ability to submit further responses to the thread are no longer present. And it no longer appears in "related to you" activity listings, apparently as a consequence of having been closed.

Regards,
-- Al

cleeds
The snake oil thread isn’t closed, it’s here.
There was a troll thread that was closed earlier today. I think this was it here.

Good catch! The Snake Oil thread is not a troll thread. 😛

almarg had a response to a cable thread a few years ago, speaker I believe, that was a perfect summary of all these endless threads, concise and exactly on point...look for it

Thanks, Jl35.  My post that you are referring to appears near the bottom of this page:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-do-people-feel-the-need-to-buy-expensive-cable?page=9

Best regards,
-- Al
 

Hey, this thread is shaping up to be even funnier than the one they closed. 🤡 Next up, How come audiophiles are always trying to get better sound. Why can’t they just be content like us? 🙄

Enjoy the music.

The burnin' question is do snake oil salesmen elect their representative or is that position just up for grabs?

The reason that comments have been turned off for the thread in question is it should be obvious related to the challenge initiated in the original posting which was that socalled naysayers who claim snake oil and fraud should prove their case in court and reap the rich rewards they would earn from exposing such a broad conspiracy. They can not prove their claims no matter how loudly they assert their assertions that those who hear such differences as they deem impossible to detect must be somehow intellectually or genetically deficient as is evident to those who read the responses that moderators  deleted in that thread prior to closing it down. This matter should settle for once and for all this tired debate by those advanced minds who come here to instruct the rest of us about such matters as confirmation bias and other nonsense that renders insignificant, flawed, or invalid the listening impressions posted by the users of this forum. I am proud to to be the creator of this thread that has settled this issue so that we need not return to it again.

what a stupid post

Why is the snake oil topic closed?

Because it had no place being in a "Technical Forum" just as this thread.

Both should be in the  Misc Audio forum where anything goes.

Cheers George

@randy-11, thank you so much for summing this up, I concur.

Agent Smith from the movie the Matrix pointed out that human beings follow the same pattern as a virus.

But that was just a movie quote. No relevance here, right?

Nonoise wrote:
"Forget my previous lament about the neighborhood: it's the whole planet. We're being dumbed down at an alarming pace."

By design my friend....by design.  It is much more difficult to subjugate an aware and educated populous than one that is ignorant and needy.

In as subjective a hobby as is musical appreciation, and as well, adoration of fine musical reproduction, science does not always have the last word.

Merely possessing the ability to allow other people to be other people is a significant display of maturity and emotional stability. So is being able to agree to disagree. Where it becomes combustible is when camps collect and decide they must win the day by converting the opposite bands to their own opinions.

Mean spirited, piling on, condescending, duplicit, redundancy, snarkyness, all of these add up, I think as with recent past thread removals, Admin simply gets tired of removing individual posts one after another incessantly, and then decides to drop the thread rather than to keep flaging member’s poor remarks.

Simply count the ‘post removed’ notices. That will tell you if a thread is headed in the direction of deletion or removal.

I feel, the member’s name should remain, but their comments vacated. Maybe they’ll get the idea after enough public embarrassing deletions of their remarks.

I mean, if a person’s input is so bad it should be taken down, leave up the member’s handle, just delete their words.

Thread removals are in spite of the orig thread’s focus, it is due to the feedback which is input onto it from members who ignore the fact freedom of speech is not license to defame, belittle, or slander, another member or the topic itself.

I think it’s an efficiency thingy. Why keep a person eyeing the same volatile thread which is garnering outlandish feedback.

I do not agree with removal of a thread due to some members careless, thoughtless, or injurious input and or outright vulgar objectifying or inflammatory violent language, if such things were not written in the thread’s premise.

Don’t kill the message. Cull those who ignore policy.

Deleting threads due to a wealth of offensive posts, enables impowerment to any subsection or group which decides to take down any thread by merely blasting it off the forums due to biases, prejudices, plain dislike, or for any reason these camps might derive.

If member’s desire to open mouth with out putting brain in gear, and or applying restraint and respect within the context of their posts is impossible, or if they demand vulgarity be used to describe their thoughts… ban them. Not the thread.

Suspend those whose verbal assaults fly freely. Bar those members temporarily which continue to defame and bash and choose libelous assertions or are just plainly displaying rage..

If they repeat, increase the term of suspension. If they still repeat? Deny them any further rights to post to or generate threads of any kind. Its simple.

As for merely just plain dumb goofy, juvenile, or stupid remarks. Well, you can fix ignorant. You can not fix stupid, but it is easier to overlook dumb stuff.

And yes. Decidedly the level of displayed angst, anxiety and ire increase online with strong regularity regardless the venue.

Why not? Anonymity cloakes everyone. Take out your ire online! It is an increasingly popular global pastime.

Its all about inappropriate ‘entitlements. Everybody gets a trophy! Everybody is a winner. There are no losers! You are just as special as anyone else. OMG.

One fix might be to force anyone to use only their legit verified full names. Audiogon, for that matter, would not be the first ones to implement such a requirement.

Maybe, if we could no longer hide behind a veil of obscurity, we’d have to start talking to other’s like we were face to face in the real world. If not fully with respect, but with thoughtfulness or consideration at least.

Say what you mean, mean what you say, don’t say it mean. Simple stuff.

What is reality?  Is reality a concept that is individualized?  Is reality different things to different people?  You bet it is.  150 years ago there were many people "cured" by the likes of Dr. John's Miracle Elixir.  To be cured though, required the belief that  one would be cured.  All religions are based on this concept as is much of the audio industry in the 21st century. 

" To be cured though, required the belief that one would be cured. All religions are based on this concept as is much of the audio industry in the 21st century. "

This is nonsense and the very reason that this thread was closed is because it offered a clear and decisive path towards proving this snakeoil and fraud claim for once and for all yet those who assert this claim were unwilling to pursue this path and instead posted derogatory remarks about those with who they disagree so vehemently just as you have done here. So again I extend the challenge that those who argue that fraud is the basis of audio need only to take they’re case to court and this matter will be resolved but of course the naysayers do not engage that solution because they would rather insult the readers here as they proclaim themselves to be immune from the confirmation bias that they insist is at the basis of the fraud they allege! As for snakeoil being the basis of all religions you are obviously ignorant of the truth here so please go ahead and prove your claims about audio rather than just attack those here who do not think everything sounds the same but it is pointless to continue to just argue it here the matter has been settled your claim is without logical basis and that is why the thread has been closed your argument has been made and proven false!

Audiophile product fraud would be rather difficult to prove in court. And that’s why Better Business Bureau, Consumer Watchdog groups, Consumer Reports, Bureau of Consumer Protection, FCC, NIST, AES, Journal of Physics, or any other consumer protection group does not (rpt not) respond to requests for investigating an audiophile device or tweak on the suspicion that the device either has claims that are false or that the device is an outright fraud, and does nothing. What would the judge’s instructions to the jury be, see if sound is more transparent, or the if the bass has more slam? Cut me some slack! The real advantage of audiophile tweaks is they make good conversation starters. Caveats emptor, your results may vary, enjoy the music. Smoke if ya got em.

In capitalist society we are free to spend our money as we wish. However, advertising leads us down an either/or, this/that path where confusion is encouraged! Coke or Pepsi, anyone? Wire is in the same category. Who do you believe? Who do you trust to lead you to the TRUTH!

Huh? Coke or Pepsi? Don’t be silly. You buy the one you think tastes best. It has almost nothing to do with advertising. Are you so gullible? By the way, Coke is much better than Pepsi ever thought of being.

I agree coke is better and once you get used to diet coke you like it better than regular coke.  And Chicago style thin-crust is way underrated compared to New York style thin crust.

By the way I agree with those who call for civility.  These are not life and death debates.  I'd like to think of the Audiogon crowd meeting for a drink at a bar with a good, eclectic DJ.  

I think this thread is at least as stupid as Foggythink's. There's nothing to be learned about snake oil. These fools aren't on the cutting edge of some new technology. They're neurotic in a very particular and defined way which is why they all sound alike! Why entertain them? I commend those who derail their stupid snake oil threads. 

I took the Pepsi challenge long ago...I could tell right away that the drink served warm and flat was Coke and that the cold fizzy one was Pepsi...

That's what happens when you eat at a dump. They serve Coke warm and flat. Which is analogous to naysayers who don't have good luck with certain tweaks. It's an operator error. Hel-loo! For the rest of the tweakaphobes, the ones who never get up off their Barco Loungers to try anything, who knows why they get a bee in their bonnets. Oh, well, you can't save the world. 

the challenge was presented by Pepsi - it was rigged of course...

georgehifi
Why is the snake oil topic closed?
Because it had no place being in a "Technical Forum" just as this thread.

Both should be in the Misc Audio forum where anything goes.

Cheers George

>>>>Actually, Georgie Boy, many of the controversial tweaks we are talking about here are quite technical, at least have technical aspects to them. Fuses, cables, tiny little bowls, Morphic Message Labels, clocks, what have you. Of course, it’s quite understandable that some folks are obsessed with circuits and have no other interests. Electric circuits is not the only technical field in this hobby. Don't be a big cry baby.

Many of the controversial tweaks we are talking about here are quite technical, at least have technical aspects to them. Fuses, cables, tiny little bowls, Morphic Message Labels, clocks,

You should be preaching this crud here, among your disciples.
 https://cdni.rt.com/files/2015.12/article/5670cd0cc46188bd2c8b461f.jpg

Cheers George 

jji666

Your post answered the question..........leads to less crap sold on Audiogon.

no idea why they ended the thread, but it's hard to believe that this or any similar thread,  actually changed anyone's mind about anything or altered any buying decisions 

Georgiehifi wrote,

"You should be preaching your crud here."

Crud? That's quite a vocabulary you're sporting there, Georgie. You're not real good with technical debate are ya, mate?

I shouldn't have asked.  Apologies to serious audio fans.  I need to go take a shower. 

Ah, couldn’t think of a good argument, eh? That's a shame.

kosst_amojan

... this thread is at least as stupid as Foggythink's ... These fools aren't on the cutting edge... They're neurotic ... I commend those who derail their stupid snake oil threads.

Why so angry? Why so bitter?

What naturally happens to dog that is hungry?
One will steal food from your dinner table if spotted smell.
A theft is natural to all of us including dogs and everyone improvises and practices that skill so that it won't hurt the victim in a very nice way. It's an art that always creates tension between us, yet, we praise skillful thieves in the movies played by high caliber movie actors. 
Ways to steal are so many perhaps more than combinations on the chess board in the beginning of the game so discussed 'SNAKE OIL' I believe should not be a topic of frustration or anger -- IT'S OUR NATURE for hek sake yo! So my only reaction to those trying to purchase $100k home audio amp, $10k home audio wires and even $10k turntable cartridges is chuckle-chuckle whahaha!

Well for one thing as a serious audio fan that honors science and engineering, it can be kind of embarrassing to be associated with some of the more ridiculous tweaks that some support here. And occasionally it can feel like someone is trying to rip one off.  (I do acknowledge that most tweakers don't push tweaks on others and stick to the "different strokes for different folks" mentality).  

I think it is just a matter of degree:  I'm sure many tweaks have some effect.  Some clearly cannot. Then some are so extreme so as to represent a caricature.  

What is impossible is that a tweak is not measurable but still effective. It's possible instruments are not sensitive enough yet.  But the concept that a tweak would be impossible to ever measure, but still effective, makes no sense.