Why Power Cables Affect Sound
Sorry to inform but there is no electron transfer through wire. Electrons are for all intents and purposes stationary. What IS traveling through the wires is photons, which makes sense, right? You know, since the signal travels through wire at near lightspeed. Happy Holidays! ⛄️ 🎅🏻 Next up, do photons have mass? 🙄 |
If electrons go back and forth at their drift velocity (in an AC circuit) which is very slow to begin with they have zero net velocity, no? So what I said is correct, electrons don’t travel through wire. In a DC circuit they would travel but extremely slowly. The point is they are not the signal. If photons have no mass their momentum m x v would be zero. So, since they do have momentum they must have mass. Photons at rest have zero mass is what is taught in school. But I am pretty sure there is no such thing as a photon at rest. |
Why would you jump to the conclusion that they’re cutting corners. I’d say the evidence is actually that many if not most high end amplifier manufacturers are blissfully unaware of aftermarket power cords or, in some cases if they have heard of them they don’t care. Now, one reason they might not pursue power cords is every customer is different, so no matter what power cord the manufacturer provides folks want freedom to choose their own power cord. Same thing for fuses. Why should manufacturers pay for something that’s going to be replaced? Doesn’t make sense. |
roberjerman1,920 posts12-17-2018 8:38amThe power of advertising! Tell enough lies long enough and people will believe the lies. Report this >>>>>Huh? You are Exhibit A of your own statement. 😬 |
Stevecham, please be aware all electromagnetic waves are comprised of photons. What we usually call light, i.e., visible light, is part of the electromagnetic spectrum but only a very small part. Radio waves, gamma rays, x Rays, visible light - they’re all photons. Visible light cannot penetrate opaque materials, that’s obviously true, but obviously other higher energy electromagnetic waves in the spectrum can penetrate opaque and solid material, gamma rays, x-rays and ......electronic signals through wire. The signals in wire are electromagnetic waves - that’s why they travel through wire at near lightspeed. That’s why telephone signals through buried copper cable travel at near lightspeed, that why there’s no propagation delay. And also why there’s no delay over cell phone systems - radio waves travel at near lightspeed in air. And what is the ONLY particle that can travel at near lightspeed in a medium and at lightspeed in a vacuum? Answer at 11. 😳 |
Costco, electrons do not give rise to photons in a copper conductor. Have you been hitting the crack pipe again? Electrons in a copper conductor are simply charge carriers. The photons are the tranmitted signal. Earth to Costco! 👩🏻🚀 The point is, getting back down to Earth for a moment, is that electrons are not (rpt not) the electric signal or the music signal. And electrons do not travel at any significant velocity in a conductor. If fact in an AC circuit since they move back and forth with alternating current their net velocity is zero, obviously. |
roberjerman1,918 posts12-16-2018 12:46pmThere is no music signal going through a power cable. Your analogy comparing "light" to "heavy" masses does not apply to electron transfer through wires! >>>>I didn’t say there was “music signal” going through a power cable. In an alternating current AC circuit the drift velocity direction of electrons alternates along with the current. I did not compare light to heavy masses. You’re confusing me with someone else. |
tobor00735 posts12-17-2018 9:13am"A 2014 study published in Science Translational Medicine (Harvard medical school) explored placebo effect by testing how people reacted to migraine pain medication. The researchers discovered that the placebo was 50% as effective as the real drug to reduce pain after a migraine attack." That percentage would pretty much cover the " significant" difference some people are hearing. Spend the extra money on room tweaks. >>>>I can’t go along with your detective work, slim. The drug industry has no relationship to the audio industry. There are many more variables involved in audio testing, variables that affect the sound, including real differences between X and Y, for example. Also it would be just plain silly to believe 50% of audiophile reports are due to the placebo effect. Do the math. This is standard naysayer fare. |
kosst_amojan1,854 posts12-17-2018 3:43am@geoffkait Sorry, but the electrons are moving and it’s not accurate to say that their agregate motion equals null motion. Photons are the force carrier that move them and that’s extremely important, but the motion of the electrons is what’s really going on on. All one needs to do is understand how a BJT transistor works. The mechanism of their operation is the physical motion of electrons between differently doped regions. A P doped regions doesn’t have photon holes. It has electron holes. The physics of a transistor are dictated by the motion of electrons. >>I automatically defer to you when it comes to doping. 😵 But seriously, I know all about artificial atoms, thank you very much, which have precious little to do with signal propagation through wire. Nice try at diversion, however, and trying to present yourself as very knowledgeable. It will be our little secret. 🤭 |
@geoffkait said: " Nobody accused them of being stupid. I accused them of being either ignorant of high end cables" Okay." Ignorant" then. Why buy gear from ignorant manufactures who don’t know that a different power cable will make their gear sound better. >>>>Agree. Although, they might be really smart about circuits and topology. Just because they don’t know about audiophile power cords or fuses or directionality does not prevent them from having a product that people will buy. I won’t but someone will. The amp wil still work. It’s a question of why are amp designers so slow on the uptake? They are probably nice people. It’s why I sometimes say amp designers are hyper-focused on circuits. When you have blinders on you miss the big picture. At least you seem to grudgingly admit the word stupid has a different meaning from the word ignorant. "or not wishing to spend money on an expensive power cord that would be replaced anyway." What? Why in the heck would they care what you do to their component after you buy it? Because they have to pay for the aftermarket power cord. Every cost gets multiplied. If they were trying to win Best of Show and they were aware of audiophile power cords you’d think they would use one at the show, but they don’t. They don’t even burn in the speakers or electronics before show time. Does that make any sense? " Follow?" No! Your explanation is pure nonsense. Oh, well. At least I tried. "For example, and I have no idea how much the top of the line Pangea power cord costs, but if a high end amp that I purchased came with a Pangea power cord the very first thing I would do is replace it with a real high end power cord." Bingo! This is probably THE finest explanation of the phenomenon of high end power cords. It basically states that no matter how good the OEM cord is the true audiophile (insert gullible rube there if you wish) is going to change it to something else. >>>>You should probably stick to photography. No offense. Now I get it. Thank you. Yuk, yuk! " The cost of really good power cords would place the amp maker completely out of the market." That logic does not follow. In a world of $24,000 interconnects and $40,000 speaker cables and $500,000 home audio speakers there is NO SUCH THING as pricing audiophile equipment out of the market. >>>>High end manufacturers have to know a priori what the market is for their product. If the don’t have a finance/business guy on board they won’t survive long. It’s not a world of $24,000 cables and $40,000 speakers. That is perhaps 2% of high end products. Besides $250,000 speakers would have made a better argument. - your friend and audio insider, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica Advanced Audio Concepts |
kalali1,530 posts12-17-2018 11:52am“Now, having no credibility is a problem. But admitting that you have that problem isn’t going to help no matter how many steps are in the program.That ship has sailed.” n80, well said. Its very ignorant to think all high end equipment manufacturers with access to excellent test equipment are stupid and have no clue there’s a huge market for aftermarket power cords. >>>>Nobody accused them of being stupid. I accused them of being either ignorant of high end cables or not wishing to spend money on an expensive power cord that would be replaced anyway. Follow? For example, and I have no idea how much the top of the line Pangea power cord costs, but if a high end amp that I purchased came with a Pangea power cord the very first thing I would do is replace it with a real high end power cord. The cost of really good power cords would place the amp maker completely out of the market. |
stevecham3,001 posts12-17-2018 11:30amThe propogation of electronic signals through wire happens by way of electric fields, not photons. The electons move relatively slowly while the electric fields propogate at light speed. >>>>I like that you keep coming back for more. The electronic signals are propagated as electromagnetic waves. Didn’t I just explain that? Electric fields are a different animal. Your Piled Higher and Deeper (PhD) assuming you have one which I am actually starting to doubt must not have been physics or electronics. 😬 |
kosst_amojan1,860 posts12-17-2018 9:21pm@geoffkait Good. So you agree that the electrons are moving and photons are the byproduct like I said. >>>>Electromagnetic signals (photons) could not propagate through space where there are no electrons if your statement was true. |
Psychological bias cannot be used to explain all positive results. Psychological bias can be eliminated from candidates by careful and thorough testing. Psychological bias is typically used by naysayers who do not trust their own hearing and/or who wish to disparage some audio tweak or another. No one has said there’s no such thing as psychological bias or that it can’t occur in audio. But to claim it explains all controversial or mysterious audio phenomena is pretty absurd. |
prof1,573 posts12-18-2018 11:18amgeoffkait wrote: "Psychological bias cannot be used to explain all positive results." ...... That poor, poor strawman geoff, won’t you ever stop beating it? Have some mercy on the thing! >>>>>If the shoe fits wear it. 👠. - Old audiophile axiom |
Now, I realize that what I’m about to say is going to rub some people the wrong way. (Hey, I’m a poet and don’t know it.) One reason power cords sound good in one system but not another, I.e., why people get differing results with even expensive power cords is because they are directional. So, unless the manufacturer, I.e., Audioquest, controls the power cords for wire directionality the odds are 50% that a given power cord will sound like it’s supposed to and 50% that it will sound worse than it could sound. It might even sound yukky. It could make the sound worse if the previous power cord was accidentally constructed properly directionality wise. |
mkgus Assuming the phenomenon can’t be fully explained by the values of resistance, inductance and capacitance, I’m left to wonder if we are measuring the right properties. Are there other properties that need measurement? Do any of the R, L and C values change dynamically along with electron flow or are they fixed at all times? >>>>>As much as I hate to nitpick, electrons are not (rpt not) flowing. Carry on. Smoke if ya got em. “If I could explain it to the average person they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.” |
Actually, no offense intended, but my impression of Lizzie is that she’s not really Exhibit A of a careful and thorough listener nor is she particularly interested in tweaks. Nor is she particularly open minded. But that is just my opinion. Maybe she’s entirely different from how she presents herself here, as more of a curmudgeon. She is probably Exhibit A for a person who’s general attitude can be summarized into one word. - “whatever.” |
A large part of the problem here, it seems to me, what with all the pent up emotion, angst, open hostility and bizarre quasi philosophical screeds, is that people tend to be followers and - I hate to judge to quickly but - many involved in this thread are following the wrong livestock. As for doctors, no offense, but all that “I’m a doctor so you can believe me when I say...” is a pretty obvious albeit excellent example of appeal to authority. 🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶♂️ |
mkgus 13. Cable constructions of multiple gauge wires that influence the way high, medium and low frequencies propagate through the power cable. >>>>Whoa! What? I did not know there were high, medium and low frequencies traveling through the power cord. I was under the impression it was current and voltage, alternating at 60 Hz. 😳 |
markalarsen345 posts12-19-2018 12:56pm Power cables are all about EMI. >>>Not sure how they can be “all about EMI” since they are generally shielded from EMI. Am I missing something? 😳 If you’re thinking of EMI coming in through the wall outlet no power cord can prevent that. Shielding is not equivalent to absorption. A reasonable approach to deciding what is important for power cords would be to list all their desired attributes/characteristics and arrange them by priority and cost. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 |
I accept the challenge. Here are 12 reasons why certain power cords could sound better than others. 1. Higher purity metal (oxygen free, 6 nines, etc.) 2. Higher conductivity metal, I.e., silver 3. Better dielectric material 4. Solid core vs stranded conductor 5. More effective shielding 6. More effective plugs (e.g., better conductors, tighter connection) 7. Conductor wires and strands controlled for directionality 8. Conductors are long crystal copper 9. Solid core metal wires are highly polished 10. Power cord cryogenically treated 11. Thicker conductor 12. Dielectric bias system |
kosst_amojan1,871 posts12-19-2018 4: Shielding? The 50 miles of transmission line to your house have no shielding either. >>>>Strawman argument. Like shooting fish in a barrel. 🐠 🐠 🐟 🐠 |
celander680 posts12-19-2018 6:30pmWhy do I get the impression that Kosst and Geoff are the same person? Anyone else notice they always show up on the same threads? >>>>>Oh, you’ve noticed we show up on the same threads, too. Not sure I go along with your detective work, however. He’s one of my many stalkers. Isn’t it obvious? He always shows up on controversial topic threads, where your humble narrator is oft found. Costco_emoji and I are about as diametrically opposed on most issues as you can get so it’s extremely unlikely we’re the same person. Mystery solved! |
celander682 posts12-19-2018 7:44pmGeoff/Kosst, split personality. There are treatments available. Just saying... >>>>Free psychological advice. What a great thread! |
celander678 posts12-19-2018 4:39pmCan’t let Geoff have the last word on this one. +1, to markalarsen I’d go further and suggest all cables are influenced by EMI. And some cables don’t have a shield. Just saying that as a matter of fact, not preference or argument. But arguably, some unshielded cables are highly regarded among those cables having the best SQ, including power cables. >>>>>A little bit of confliction in those statements. |
Mkgus wrote, in response to my list of desirable power cord characteristics, 13. Cable constructions of multiple gauge wires that influence the way high, medium and low frequencies propagate through the power cable. >>>>He was thinking that multiple gauge wires would help the propagation of high, medium and low frequencies so he was thinking they were audio frequencies, obviously. Not noise harmonics. Cut me some slack, Jack. |
Other factors related to all power cords affecting sound quality, including tricks of the trade, 1. Type of wall outlet 2. Type of wall outlet cover 3. Elevating or suspending power cord 4. Demagnetizing power cord 5. Ionizing or otherwise removing electric static charge 6. Using a contact enhancer on all electrical contacts 7. Choosing a white cable jacket 8. Judging sound quality only after a burn in period of at least 200 hours unless using a burn in device |
edstrelow21 posts12-21-2018 3:00amThere is a lot of confusion here between theories and evidence. >>>There certainly is. But the confusion is not really between theories and evidence, it’s between proof and evidence. There is also confusion regarding test results, whether they represent proof or evidence, between mathematical proof and scientific proof, and even confusion regarding what constitutes empirical evidence. There is also confusion regarding why a negative test result does not (rpt not) overturn a theory, which is often claimed for controversial audio devices. edstrelow Merely having a plausible explanation for some phenomenon does not mean it is a correct explanation of that phenomenon, e.g. a suggestion that good cables have less susceptibility to electrical fields around them. Such an explanation requires a measurement to show such reduced susceptibility of that specific cable. >>>>>Actually measurement is not proof, it is only evidence of a theory. And lack of measurements does not disprove the theory. Listening tests are evidence, just like measurements, but not proof. Measurements can be deceiving, for example amplifiers with very low THD Total Harmonic Distortion can sound subjectively worse than amplifiers with much higher (orders of magnitude) THD. Another example: silver measures somewhat better conductivity than copper but can often sound worse subjectively than copper in audio applications. edstrelow Then you need some proof that this interference or reduced interference is what people are actually responding to as an improvement in sound quality, possibly by adding and subtracting such interference to audio signals and seeing what people report. >>>>>As I said there can be no proof, only evidence. People are thus put in the often uncomfortable position of having to decide what’s going on by looking at the evidence and seeing if there is a preponderance of the evidence, there may or may not be. C’est la vie! |
This is what Audioquest says of power cords, Amplifiers present a real challenge for any AC power source, as the transient current requirements (though short in duration) can be many times that of the average (RMS) current consumption. Power amplifiers are also unique from all other components in that the current draw is dynamic, not constant, and it changes with volume and audio signal content. Though many AC power cords may feature low DC resistance to allow for some of this requirement, the characteristic impedance of the AC cable is equally responsible for assuring uncompromised performance. Many premium AC cords constrict or compress the audio transient as their characteristic impedance restricts the transient current.PURITY CONDUCTORS - SOLID PERFECT-SURFACE COPPER+ (PSC+)Solid Perfect-Surface Copper+ (PSC+) conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of ear fatiguing transient intermodulation distortion. The astonishingly smooth and pure Perfect-Surface Copper+ eliminates harshness and greatly increases clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other premium coppers. The superior purity of PSC+ further minimizes distortion caused by grain boundaries, which exist within any metal conductor. The astonishingly smooth and pure Perfect-Surface Copper further eliminates harshness and greatly increases clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other premium coppers.GROUND NOISE-DISSIPATION TECHNOLOGYAC Ground wires provide protection from current-wiring faults, but they also act as antennas. Thus, they are subject to induced radio frequency (RF) noise. This RF noise bypasses component power supplies and is typically coupled directly into a system’s most sensitive audio-video circuits. AudioQuest’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation greatly reduces this distortion, yielding unprecedented levels of noise dissipation across the widest bandwidth (range) of radio frequencies possible. Our unique circuit-topology utilizes a common-mode phase-cancelling array, in concert with proprietary dielectric materials which provide additional differential linear filtering. (US Patent # 9,373,439) UNCOMPRESSED HIGH-CURRENT TRANSFER - HURRICANE With current capacity of 20 amps RMS @ 125VAC 50/60Hz (16 amps RMS @ 220-240VA 50/60Hz), Hurricane/High-Current can withstand current transient peaks many times its continuous (average) RMS rating. This makes Hurricane/High-Current ideally suited for a wide assortment of AC power conditioners, power regenerators, AC isolation transformers, and AC battery back-up devices, as well as any power amplifier, powered subwoofer, powered loudspeaker, powered receiver, or integrated amplifier. DIELECTRIC-BIAS SYSTEM WITH RADIO FREQUENCY TRAP All insulation between two or more conductors is also a dielectric whose properties will affect the integrity of the signal. When the dielectric is unbiased, dielectric-involvement (absorption and non-linear release of energy) causes different amounts of time delay (phase shift) for different frequencies and energy levels, which is a real problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio. The inclusion of an RF Trap (developed for AudioQuest’s Niagara Series of power products), ensures that radio frequency noise will not be induced into the signal conductors from the DBS field elements. (DBS, US Pat #s 7,126,055 & 7,872,195 B1) DIRECTIONALITY All drawn metal strands or conductors have a non-symmetrical, and therefore directional, grain structure. AudioQuest controls the resulting RF impedance variation so that noise is drained away from where it will cause distortion. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. When applicable, arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For most models of AQ cable, the arrows not only indicate the direction that optimizes metal-directionality as part of Noise-Dissipation, but also indicates non-symmetrical attachment of shield and GND in order to optimize full-system performance.” |
