The Denon DL-S1 has an output of .15mV and 40 ohms internal impedance. Because of the high internal impedance, an active phono stage will be a better match than a SUT. Disclaimer- I manufacture Bob's Devices SUTs. The 60dB gain of your phono stage is insufficient for your cartridge. I suggest that you either get a different phono stage, or get a different cartridge.
Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations
Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations
- Vinyl newbie and need some help
- Friend has a brand new Denon DL-S1 for $600 - good deal?
- I have a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp and just bought the dual mono MM/MC Phono module boards. They are the identical boards from the No,32 preamp and read that was a very nice sounding phono preamp.
- No.326s only has a couple settings 42db or 60 db and 47k ohm or 200 ohm load
- I picked up a used Bob's Device 1131 thinking it would help as my No.326s has limited setting options and read the 1131 might not work well with this cart. That this cart is tough to get the most out of but can be great.
- Should I get another cart? Was it a mistake getting the 1131 SUT. I read the No.326s sounded nice with this SUT so went for it but don't know enough to really know better either way but trying to learn.
- The No.326s phono boards has these little gold terminal screws with easy tighten by hand little knobs on the heads of the screws to add either capacitor or resistor to make the phono very adjustable but would have no idea how to figure out how to use that but thought to mention
- just wondering if this is a bad cart for me to try with my phono and SUT set up and any feedback about anything related to a cart would be super appreciated if anyone reads this. Thanks
more info if helpful below but not need to answer my question just thought to add it :)
______________________________________________________________________________________
I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system. I sold my entire old system that was tubes and high efficiency speakers and got new to me: speakers, amp, preamp, speaker cables and upgraded digital transport and got a new turntable. Kept my DAC never changing that. Love my DAC.
This system is the best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I just added a turntable.
A modern Version of the VPI Prime Aries with HRX Feet, 10" 3D Arm and Base, Prime Signature Platter, Ring and Motor.
I am looking for a cart and my friend has a new Denon DL-S1 for $600 he also has a used but good shape Clearaudio Accurate mc cart for a few hundred but i never heard of this one and a van den Hul blackheart grass hopper which I know nothing of.
I thought because the Denon is new never used that was the best option but any of you know anything about the other let me know please.
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.
As stated above I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp and added a Bobs Device 1131 SUT and both were attained a very reasonable cost which was great!
Just not sure if these carts will go with my phono and SUT.
Rest of my System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160
- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas
- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.
This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward
** Back Ground info**
** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak
** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.
** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.
** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.
To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and SUT and Turntable here we are trying to chose a cart.
Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)
- Vinyl newbie and need some help
- Friend has a brand new Denon DL-S1 for $600 - good deal?
- I have a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp and just bought the dual mono MM/MC Phono module boards. They are the identical boards from the No,32 preamp and read that was a very nice sounding phono preamp.
- No.326s only has a couple settings 42db or 60 db and 47k ohm or 200 ohm load
- I picked up a used Bob's Device 1131 thinking it would help as my No.326s has limited setting options and read the 1131 might not work well with this cart. That this cart is tough to get the most out of but can be great.
- Should I get another cart? Was it a mistake getting the 1131 SUT. I read the No.326s sounded nice with this SUT so went for it but don't know enough to really know better either way but trying to learn.
- The No.326s phono boards has these little gold terminal screws with easy tighten by hand little knobs on the heads of the screws to add either capacitor or resistor to make the phono very adjustable but would have no idea how to figure out how to use that but thought to mention
- just wondering if this is a bad cart for me to try with my phono and SUT set up and any feedback about anything related to a cart would be super appreciated if anyone reads this. Thanks
more info if helpful below but not need to answer my question just thought to add it :)
______________________________________________________________________________________
I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system. I sold my entire old system that was tubes and high efficiency speakers and got new to me: speakers, amp, preamp, speaker cables and upgraded digital transport and got a new turntable. Kept my DAC never changing that. Love my DAC.
This system is the best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I just added a turntable.
A modern Version of the VPI Prime Aries with HRX Feet, 10" 3D Arm and Base, Prime Signature Platter, Ring and Motor.
I am looking for a cart and my friend has a new Denon DL-S1 for $600 he also has a used but good shape Clearaudio Accurate mc cart for a few hundred but i never heard of this one and a van den Hul blackheart grass hopper which I know nothing of.
I thought because the Denon is new never used that was the best option but any of you know anything about the other let me know please.
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.
As stated above I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp and added a Bobs Device 1131 SUT and both were attained a very reasonable cost which was great!
Just not sure if these carts will go with my phono and SUT.
Rest of my System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160
- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas
- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.
This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward
** Back Ground info**
** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak
** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.
** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.
** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.
To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and SUT and Turntable here we are trying to chose a cart.
Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)
136 responses Add your response
Hey Guys - wanted to share with you my most recent project and review for my network media player: Bricasti M1 - M5 - M12: Network Player - My REVIEW w/OEM Response Brian Zolner @ Bricasti https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/bricasti-m1-m5-m12-network-player-my-review-w-oem-response-br... |
The real issue is that the DL-S1 has an output of .15mV with an internal impedance of 40 ohms. There is no step up transformer that can do it justice. If you raise the gain enough, you load the cartridge too much. You have to use an active stage with that cartridge. I also have an issue with a regular poster on this site who spends a lot of time berating equipment he has not tried and is so opinionated that anyone who disagrees with him is an idiot. He gives lots of incorrect information and some good information, which makes him dangerous. People who don't know better accept his guidance which in many cases is incorrect. I don't have much time to spend on sites like this and with this writer in particular, don't have the time to argue with his statements that are grossly incorrect. So please don't take anyone's word on what sounds good, unless they have actually tried the exact combination. Saying that someone has tried 4 different SUTs, does not make him an expert. How were they matched with cartridges and phono preamps, and does he really have golden ears. |
I at last got my DL-S1. Designed specific for their very successful AU-S1 SUT. Matching impedance between both is one thing but how should one match the inductance of both when this value is never mentioned by technical specs? Well we can assume that DL-S1 is also matched qua inductance. For those who believe that prices do matter an ''killer combo''. For about $2000 one can get both. I like the balance between fundamentals and harmonics by this cart but in particular reproduction of string instruments. For about $900 an real bargain. |
Ok Raul, I’ll buy your argument that passive parts have improved. Tube electronics use those same passive parts so they would have improved as well as SS. You still never filled us in on your qualifications? as cleeds pointed out your rebuttal lacks substance to the extreme. I guess we are just supposed to take your word on things. |
Dear @cleeds : Facts and arguments are over Agon forum and other forums where I and other audiophiles posted and post. Problem with those information links are the date of those " studies ": 1973/1998. Things change in " extreme " in all those years, we have to remember that we live in year 2018 and today electronic design, electronic parts ( pasive an active. ), excecution quality levels already changed for the better: way better than in 1973 ! ! ! @analogluvr and maybe you are still living in 1973 along the corrupted AHEE. Never mind, keep in that way. That does not harm any one. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
rauliruegas Well your " electronic engineer " just " speaks " with out showing any arguments or foundation ...OK, Raul, let's look at your "arguments or foundation" ...
|
Dear @analogluvr : Your link for " an open mind folks " comes from here: http://www.effectrode.com/ and nothing of what we are talking here in home audio system hobby where exist phonolinepreamps and amplifiers, all system items in the system link are for home audiophiles. Well your " electronic engineer " just " speaks " with out showing any arguments or foundation that can attest what he posted: Advantages with Tubes:
Advantages Transistor:
Transistors disadvantages:
It's a waste of time with your " expert ". and that's your reference?, now I can understand whom you really are. Something worst that the AHEE. Good for you. R. |
For other folks with an open mind here's a good link to a post from an electronic engineer http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/vacuum-tubes-and-transistors-compared/ here's a question for you Raul, which is the faster switching device, the vacuum tube or the semi conductor? I'll give you the answer because if you don't know you'll just make it up. It's the vacuum tube because it operates in a Vacuum |
Raul please talk with tube designer and come back and share what you learn. Oh I forgot you can never learn anything because you already know it all! I would be more than happy to host anyone and do an A B comparison against any spectral amplifier. I don't know enough about reel to reel to get into that debate with you, but I'm sure there are other reasons why it sounds so good besides the fact that it has high odd ordered harmonics. Solid state has great specs and is for lovers of equipment Tubes are for lovers of music because it sounds like MUSIC anyways I'm out of here talking to Raul is like bashing your head off-the-wall |
Dear @analogluvr : Almost everyone attest ( maybe you don't. ) that the R2R audio item is and has the best quality performance levels to listen music in a home system and you know what: R2R mainly generates odd harmonics not even ones. In the other side odd harmonics can do some kind of hardness/harm to what we listen but that depends on two harmonic characteristics: its SPL and its order generated by the electronic item. """ are if you were piece of crap solid-state goes to 1 MHz, that's libel to do more harm than good. """ Look how sure I was that you will gave those kind of wrong answers that in my past posts you can read: """ in Spectral the the frequency range goes over 1 Mhz ( if you ask or tell that we don't need that so wide bandwidth then you just can't understand why and my recomendation is that you ask directly to Dr. Johnson Spectral owner. ) """ he is the designer. With very low distortion levels that your or any OTL just can't do it and between other things is why tubes are out of reality and that musical argument you are talking about but that you can't understand it. You posted: """ Japanese solid-state receivers from the 70s and 80s had total harmonic distortion numbers of 0.001. According to your philosophy they will sound much better than my atmosphere OTL. """ NO, don't put words like that " according to your " because it's not. That's what your limited brain say not me because the Spectral is today unit and its quality levels performance is way beyond your " terrible " OTL can't even approach it. Problem with your OTL is not if its design is OTL or not the problem ( that you just can't understand it. ) are TUBES. Got it? ? ? Please talk with Spectral designer and then come back here and share what you learned if any ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@fsmithjack do yourself a favour and don't listen to Raul . He comes across as an expert as he has nothing better to do than sit in front of his computer all day and respond. Just because you say something over and over and over and over and over does not make it true. Yes I agree with him that the ortofon A90 is a better cartridge than the Denon. However the Denon was a known quantity at a great price and the ortofon was not. Hence why I thought you should have went with the Denon, used it for a while and then moved on if you wished. The Denon is a very very capable cartridge. again I cannot overstate this enough, do not pay any attention to Raul. Anybody who doesn't differentiate between the different kinds of distortion has no credibility. |
Raul are you crazy?! The otl specs you listed go beyond the limits of human hearing by far in both directions. Total harmonic distortion may be a bit higher than your piece of crap solid-state but it is composed of even order harmonics not odd order harmonics. There is a huge difference between those two. The OTL will be far more musical and sound far more realistic. Of course if you're just obsessed with keeping the total harmonic distortion low then listen to your crappy solid-state. And I don't care if you were piece of crap solid-state goes to 1 MHz, that's libel to do more harm than good. You are a testament to the dangers of the Internet, on here postulating as an expert freely handing out bad advice. Japanese solid-state receivers from the 70s and 80s had total harmonic distortion numbers of 0.001. According to your philosophy they will sound much better than my atmosphere OTL. |
Dear @fsmithjack : You was not very specific to whom of those two A90 sellers gave you that trade offer. I'm sure that the one that owns the Clearaudio can't accept it because the S1 is a " riculous " trading if you let it go the A90 and own the Clearaudio and any SUT is not attractive for audiophiles that has good knowledge level. In the other side that Steelhead is a BS against the up-dated 326S, yes you read : " its a great phonostage. ", for whom: for non-audiophiles that have very low knowledge level and that still think that this new 2018 year in reality it's not but 1960. One of those gentlemans is analogvur that I'm still waiting he shares a wider and true explanation of the tubes supremacy. Btw, I don't said that SUTs sound bad what I'm telling is that a good high gain design is way superior alternative. In this same thread I posted: whom of you ( the experts. ) can tell us why exist the SUTs? and till now no one of the SUT proponents shared his explanation. I'm certain that some audiophiles know the rigth answer to that simple question. No, I'm not to share my history about that I posted more than 3-4 times in forums. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@fsmithjack , Our hobby is also about money so one need to know something about the theory. Money means liquidity that is the capability to buy whatever you want . By barter you have ''the choice'' to get just one commodity in exchange for your own. That is why people sell their stuff in order to get money. I deed some with acquaintances because of the reluctance to sell to them but this kind of ''trade'' was very disappointing. As I already mentioned I paid $900 for the DL-S1 in America while in Europe those cost +900 euro. As I understand those Cinemag SUT's are popular so you will have no problem to sell yours. To my mind this is an better proposition than your ''swap idea''. I already own the AU-S1 so I am curious how an ''perfect SUT/ cart match'' will sound. I hope to get the cart next week. |
Thanks
nandric and
rauliruegas
I actually emailed the guy with that A90 and asked if he would be interested in a NOS Denon S1 and a Bob's Device Cinemag 1131 as trades along with cash for his cart. I sure would love to hear my new turntable with the A90 mounted and all set up perfectly by someone that really knows how to do it just right! That would be awesome! That other guy got back to me and wants to do a straight up swap of my Levinson for a Manley Steelhead but don't think I have the guts to pull the trigger. I looked long and hard for my 326s but man everything I read about the Steelhead say its a great phonostage. My fear is that with my Bricasti it will be a big letdown and don't want to give up already what I know and love. |
Dear @analogluvr : Here are your beloved tube lower distortion with tigth linearity. If you want it you have to pay for this Signature Phonolinepreamp: 45K for the line unit and additional 36K for the phono unit and additional you have to buy the IC cables and its heavy degradation to the cartridge signal. Btw, beeen tube design of course that come with internal SUTs in favor of cartridge signal degradation. Yes, there are people that bougth it and are very happy with tubes as you are. I’m refering to the Lamm units where the inverse RIAA eq. deviation is of 0.3db ( terrible for say the least. ) when any 2K SS unit measures no more than 0.1db and my unit only 0.012db ! ! but the Lamm output impedance is the " awesome " 1.3kohms: go figure! and THD in the 1% order. The line unit is no better with a very limited frequency range between 5hz and 140khz ( and you pay for this 45K. ) and nothing more to add because with that is more than enough. As member of the AHEE ( like me. ) you only repeat whta they teached and never what is the reality. Have you a coherent explanation of these " debacle " of your tube dream?, then come and share with us. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @fsmithjack : @folkfreak posted to you: """ Of course it will be fun to learn but don’t expect it to be easy and you should do everything you can at this stage not to make it more complicated than it needs to be.... """ he is rigth and problem here is that the LP alternative is the more imperfect one from the recording pick-up signal at the microphones all over when that signal comes out from the speakers. Now, taking in count that fact and that you said are a roockie in the LP alternative then : how can you discern between somany different opinions in different analog subjects when you have " no idea " of any of them? In your thread there are true experts like @dgarretson , @enginedr1960 or @folkfreak and other gentlemans that I really don't know their " pedigree " level about and as always exist the stupid one like me. You and no one I knew or I know can learn and has deep contros in the LP alternative through fforums because is truly different than the digiotal alternative or choose electronics. You will need not months but several years to achieve a quality level performance that can competes against today best digital alternative. Perhaps the fastest gentleman to learns in deep about the LP alternative was and is @dougdeacon and he took some years for that. Btw, that A90 on sale was compared by the owner against the Goldfinger Statement 2 that its price tag is over 15K, this sole comment by him deserves your personal attention. Ortofon was the first that brougth a comercial LOMC cartridge but additional to that one of the best regarded cutting head machines used in the LP recording proccess were the Ortofon ones ( Ortofon had/has one of the best test recording made directly by them in D2D version. ) and this both characteristics gives Ortofon a pedigree level that no other cartridge designers can't ( for now. ) even yet. Here you can read some information of that A90 that between other things comes with the Ortofon exclusive Replicant 100 stylus shape: https://www.ortofon.com/mc-a90-p-634-n-4873 In other side your Pass/Magico combination brings to you power of healthy 120 watts of pure Class A, so normally you will listen it almost all the time in that regarded amp class design. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
My Gosh I provoked lyrical feelings by @fsmithjack so he wrote an poem in prose about our hobby. The characteristic of modesty and politeness is to ascribe a part of merit to others. In my case this does not apply for my MC search and choices. I deed this on my own (grin). The case is that we have an huge MM- but not an MC thread. |
Nandric - Thanks Yes and No... lol Every decision I’ve made in my life is my own so no dobt there. I’d like to think I’ve made more good ones than bad ones but heinsight can be such an unfair critic but also a good tool for growth when not too harshly overly employed. One needs to cut oneself some slack for not having a faultless crystal ball if for no other reason than inner peace :) With Audio I’ve found these decisions can be helped with getting information from other people that have first hand experience. Especially Audiophiles and more so on Audiogon. Of course a healthy pinch of salt is required in some instances but most all of it can be enterned into ones own mental algorithm to be employed toward the final decision as long as each part is stratisied to remove as much of the personal opinion as possible. Your just not not going to find a more intelligent, thoughtful, helpful group of people anywhere in any other hobby in my opinion. Maybe the common denominator is a genuine love of music whith all its color and beauty tends to make one want to help. People that so throughly enjoy such beauty and appreciate the challenges of bringing the highest quality of it into our own homes for ourselves and our families seem quite willing to help one another and this common pursuit. This in itself is a fun part of the hobby. Of course the incredibly made and engineered equipment makes it fun also and getting it all to match just right well that’s the challenge and in my opinion one best pursued by pooling our knowledge and experience. i wish had this same pool of knowledge and intelligence to draw from with all the decisions I make in life. My bet is that crystal ball would be less valueable :) I look at he specs and understand or interpret to the best of my ability and then ask for some opinions when I don’t really understand or need some more clarity. That said each time I’ve a taken a bit more time when the opportunity to take it presents itself it helps when the brows are taken in proportion to what I’m trying to learn. All this said if you look at my profile you will see I’ve asked for feedback on my amp, Preamp and Speakers and always got great helpful feedback so this is a decision making tool I find to be invaluable for making better informed decisions regardless of much of it being other folks personal likes or dislikes. It’s still super helpful info. We all love the best sound we can get. :) |
@fsmithjack , i assume you selected all your components by yourself? If so why do you need our advice for the cart? What you need is the opportunity to hear some also for your self. The carts are the most subjective parts in the whole chain so each advice will only reflects the subjective preference of the adviser. The curious case of our ''dualistic nature'': I want to own the best (possible the most expensive) cart which nobody else can afford but I also want YOU to own the same cart. There is no consistency in such ''double attitude'' (grin). |
Table has arrived. Wish I had the cart and I would unpack now :) https://www.flickr.com/photos/35630112@N05/shares/ze0346 |
Oh yes I thought we were speaking of the one I posted that I was considering. Half the time on my phone so I didn't notice you offered a mint one. Lot more money but yeah I wish this looks awesome. Maybe I sell my SUT and another interconnect or something and try one of these at some point If they are that good and it change things that much I might need to have to find away to get one at some point. Good to have something to shoot for. I never even knew that cart existed before this thread so good stuff. |
@fsmithjack : I linked/posted to you this one with only 100 hours on it coming from a " stellar " owner/seller: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-ortofon-mc-a90-2018-01-08-analog Certainly you don't read it. R. |
Dear @analogluvr : These are some specs of a very well regarded OTL manufacturer for whom I have a great respect: ....................................................................................................... Output power30 watts per channel into 8 Ω load Bandwidth2Hz-75KHz within ½ dB Hum and noiseLess than -75db below 1 watt, -95db below full power (30 watts) DistortionTotal Harmonic Distortion ( THD ) typically 1% at full power Feedback 2 dB .................................................................................... maybe the numbers on your OTL could be better I don't know because you did not name it. Well, take a look to that restricted/limited bandwidth, noise levels, THD and feedback. All this numbers only speaks of a technology really limited against today SS amps where as in Spectral the the frequency range goes over 1 Mhz ( if you ask or tell that we don't need that so wide bandwidth then you just can't understand why and my recomendation is that you ask directly to Dr. Johnson Spectral owner. ) but you posted about distortion levels and you can read here that 1% when a SS goes around 0.01 or lower as 0.001 and the like, there you read 2b on feedback and higher noise levels that any SS decent amp. But if we go to phonolinepreamp all things goes really really worst so worst that it's futile to talk about. R. |
Yup the SUT was a bad call in my rig with this cart but in fairness to me I bought it before the cart. Bob’s Device Cinemag 1131 in perfect 9/10 Condition for $750 for anyone that wants It that has a cart it will work well with. i am considering a straight up trade my pre for a Manley Steelhead - prob a bad deal for me as my pre is worth more and is a better linestage but the Steelhead Phono I’ve heard is great but doubt I have the guts to pull the trigger. My pre is just too good regardless of the Phono. I paid $575 with Shipping for Denon S1. Not sure the A90 is a little more money. Plus the A90 had 400 hours and who knows how many real hours. The thing could have 985 hours on it and where does that leave me. Atleast the Denon is NOS NIB and seemed like a decent cart for $575. My hope is that it is good enough to wet my appetite for a better Cart and it becomes my first extra in what hopefully is a nice litte stash of clean low carts to play around with. Yippee !!!! Lol |
@fsmithjack : """ Are you guys sure I am not way over my head with this cart? """ absolutely yes but not because its design but because for a little more money you could have ( not now that you bougth it. ) a way better cartridge as the A90 . With the Ortofon you can stay very near to the digital alternative and nearer on what’s in the recording and with your S1 decision you are far away from there. I don't know whom gave you the SUT advise before you bougth it but was not a good advise in anyway. R. |
Yes namdric for sure the entire system is so very important but the rest of the system I understand, have built and am quite happy with. Associated Equipment: Digital Sources: Bricasti Design M1 Special Edition DAC; Sonore microRendu 2.5 Music Server, Uptone Audio JS-2 Linear Power Supply, Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter I5, Uptone Audio LPS-1 Ultra-Capacitor Power Supply (2), Wyred 4 Sound Remedy Femto Re-Clocker, Uptone Audio ISO Regen, Denon 2910 DVD/CD Player Analogue: Turntable: VPI Aries 3D Limited Editon, Tonearm: 10.5 Inch Printed 3D, Catridge: Denon DL-S1, Step Up Transformer: Bob’s Device Cinemag 1131 Preamplification: Mark Levinson No.326s Duel-Mono Linestage and phonostage preamp, Antique Sound Labs AQ-2004DT Tube Linestage preamp Power Amplifiers: Pass Labs X350.5 Balanced Stereo Amplifier Loudspeakers: Magico S5 M-Cast Bronze Speakers, Rethm Saadhana V3 Speakers Cables: Phono: Darwin Ascension, Interconnect: Nordost Heimdall 2 XLR (2), Nordost Baldur XLR, Darwin Ascension 2, Verastarr Grand Illusion Signature, Cardas Clear Reflection, Speaker: Kubala-Sosna Emotion 2.5m, AC: Zu Event, Zu Mission, Verastarr Grand Illusion II, DC: Gent Audio Custom DC Cables (Canare/Oyaide) (8), USB: Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference, Curious Cables 200m Regen link, Audiocadabra Ultimus3 Double-Headed Solid-Silver USB Cable, DROK USB Multi meter/Tester, Digital: Black Cat Silverstar 75 BNC/S/PDIF, MIT Terminator-3 RCA S/PDIF, DH Labs Silver Sonic D-75 RCA S/PDIF (2), Tara Labs Prism 100dx-1 Tosilink, HDMI: AudioQuest Chocolate 1m, AudioQuest Forest 3m, Ethernet: AudioQuest Vodka RJ/E, AudioQuest Forest RJ/E (3), Cardas Clear RJ/E, Netgear GS108 Switch, Sundries / Accessories: Solid Tech Hybrid 3-Shelf Rack w/matching / attaching Solid Tech Hybrid 2 Shelf Rack, w/Solid Tech Rack of Silence Amplifier Stand, SRA Ohio Class Isolation Platform, Sumposium Segue ISO-Platform, PS Audio P10 Power Plant power conditioner; Red Dragon Audio Ceramic Cable Elevators (4), EdenSound Brass Vibration Weights (8), Bright Star IsoNode Footers, iFi Audio iPower 9V DC Power Supply (2), Uptone Audio Amber Regen, Cardas Audio BTS-9 Banana to Spade, Breeze Audio Linear Power Supplies (2), PS Audio Noise Harvesters (6), Furutech GTX (R) outlet, Oyaide R1 Beryllium AC Wall outlets (2) ; Blue Circle Audio The Yalu Balula (2) — Fsmithjack |
Well I don't believe that one can make music with cart alone. Those who always refer to the system as whole should also advice about the adequate phono- pre and its price, then the right tonearm with its price, then the right TT with its price, then then the right amps and , most important, the speakers and their price. How curious to forget all other necessary components. What kind of advice is an 1/5 advice? |
Dear @fsmithjack : Yes to late for the @folkfreak advise that I concur/agree with him except that LP can't outperform today digital alternative everything the same. Now, you said: """ and wish I had a little more gain.... """ YOU DON’T NEED MORE GAIN FOR ANY CARTRIDGE INCLUDING THE S1. Your up-dated 326S has more than enough but additional to this fact your speakers works at around 4 ohms and in some frequency range goes to 3.0-3.5 ohms and your Magico has a sensitivity of around 90db. What means all those?: that the Magico puts out 90db SPL with just ONE WATT AT ONE METER and your Pass amplifier puts SEVEN HUNDRED WATTS AT FULL POWER in that 4ohms speaker impedance. @fsmithjack , 90db on SPL is a real high volume to listen an audio system and normally if we want higher SPL maybe 93-95dbs ( at listening seat. ) could be way higher and not so good for continuous time because we need to mantain a healthy ears. I know that all the gentlemans in this thread are like me trying to help but in all these regards I disagree with almost all of them. problem is that almost all of them knows nothing about your up-dated 326S as I’m. As I told you twice I don’t care what you do, as a fact no one cares but you that’s who will live in the future with that system. Btw, do you already ask VPI for its new gimball tonearm and if you can mount with out trouble in your TT? Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@fsmithjack : Another great opportunity, stop to lost your time, money and making roockie mistakes: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-ortofon-mc-a90-2018-01-08-analog R. |
Um, Yeah heck yeah way too late for any of that, I am not scared it can't be that hard and if so i will still push through via reading and asking for help and if needed having someone come help me somehow. I mean I have jumped in head first as I just purchased a $7,000 turntable, $12,000 Line/phonostage, $949 Cartridge, $1,500 SUT and $2,500 interconnect that I will share with my DAC until I buy a new dedicated phono cable. Thankfully these are new MSRP and I did not pay all those prices as I bought some of this gear used and I already had the linestage and IC but with counting those even at used prices I still have well over $10,000 into this vinyl venture and that is just to put together a semi-competent starter analogue package. My pre linestage is world class but the phono is not up to the linestage or that I think anyways. The phono i hope is still decent enough as I bought the modules new for $800. All this said I wanted to best compliment the gear I already had and put this exclusive analogue package together. I went with VPI because it is not some crazy esoteric piece but rather a pretty common setup that tons of people have so I can find some help pretty easy there. I mean tons of people talk about this cart but good to know definitely don't want to use a SUT and wish I had a little more gain and with my approach that buying used allows a built in exit strategy I am hoping I like it. I mean buying a top cd or sacd player is simple but my digital system is not walk in the park either. Actually if you look at the digital I have put together there are more moving parts than this table set up. There are no short cuts in hifi but hoping to at least get off the ground and can remove the training wheels and get good enough to make me happy sound as i learn. With digital I can listen to music for 283 days straight for 24 hours a day and not hear the same song twice, Records i have maybe 20 records but no biggie I will buy one here or there as I go. I want to hear that sound or close to that sound I have read about a thousand times. Not the worlds best but good enough that I get a feel for what all the hoopla is all about. No pain no gain. Who knows maybe I dump this analogue set up and put the resource into the rest of my system. Or maybe I sell my beloved Bricasti and all my digital and focus all my resource into vinyl because I love the sound or maybe I walk a middle ground between both who knows but my gut says there is room for both as long as each is good enough as to not lose interest in the other. This is why I tried to put the best vinyl system i could for the money I had and why I am asking for help so I can learn more. Basically I chose to put the $5000 grand I had into this rather than a $5000 media server so we shall see if that was a good decision. One reason I went this route is because I listened to that $5,000 server and though my customer digital set up is better. If I spent $5000 on a digital server and liked what I had better then that would have got me no where and as far as my amp, pre or speakers I think they are good enough where $5000 would have me running into the law of diminishing returns. That leaves cables. I have pretty good cables and some are very good and $5000 in cables doesn't go that far once I get into getting better than I already have so I chose records. Want to take a kick the vinyl can and appreciate all the help. The more the help the better because I need it it :) |
@fsmithjack frankly I worry you are diving in head first and may waste a lot of time and money to no good outcome Why exactly do you feel the need to add analog to your system anyway? Do you own 1000s of LPs? Are there specific genres you like that are only available on vinyl? Without a real reason to get into vinyl why would you divert scarce $ that could go elsewhere in your system? Even if you accept (as I do) that the best vinyl can outdo the best digital, current digital (even red book) can sound magical and it will likely take an expenditure of much more than you are currently considering to get a vinyl setup that matches up to your current digital. Add to this the fincky nature of vinyl and all the things that can go wrong I think you are letting yourself in for a whole lot of pain. Of course it will be fun to learn but don’t expect it to be easy and you should do everything you can at this stage not to make it more complicated than it needs to be (ie not starting out with what sounds like an oddball cart for example). Anyway maybe i’m too late but do make sure you are prepared for what you are getting into |
Thank you Folkfreak - I appreciate it. I truly am swimming in the deep end with crazy vinyl hobby. Man is there a lot to learn. Holly smokes. OK guys read below the line below: Check this out. I was googling and reading about the Denon S1 Cart and came across this on Audio Circle - very smart people talking about the S1 and how matching to a proper built phonostage and loading the cart and the capacitance of the cables matters and are important because this is such a unique cart that seems to pose so odd balance challenges and i hardly understand it. I mean I can follow it but not sure I could ever employ any of this knowledge without at least partial translation into to newbie language from others. Read this info I just read - I copy and paste from Audio Circle: ____________________ Audio Circle: Denon S1 and preamp considerations on: 16 Sep 2011, 09:58 pm » First a little background - A few members here, participated in a group review of the DL-S1 on another forum. That thread is probably no longer there but it was very interesting, at least for the participants. While most of the reviewers has great results and thought it to be a wonderful cart, two of us had mixed feelings. I had a lot of trouble nailing down the the right load. I started out around 300 ohms, varied it up and down somewhat but couldn't get entirely satisfactory performance. On acoustic music it sounded as if there was a distortion that emphasized the overtones. It gave everything a goosed up sound that became fatiguing. I wasn't able to resolve that and finally mailed it to John TCG, for the next evaluation. The DL-S1 is rather unusual in that it has 0.15mV output and 30 ohms impedance. It also tracks light, something like 1.3g, if I remember correctly. It has an aluminum cantilever and a special elliptical stylus. On an Audiogon thread there was a discussion about cantilevers and the DL-S1 was mentioned. Johnathan Carr (designer of Lyra carts) came on and mentioned that some aluminum cantilevered carts have extended response, and all of them do not resonate within the audible band. In response to my mentioning these loading problems, his response: >The current DL-304 and DL-S1 are somewhat unusual. >They also have very low output and 30 or 40 ohm impedance! That is because the coil former is non-permeable, and therefore, rather inefficient in terms of generating electrical output from physical motion. But in return for that inefficiency, they avoid the distortions that all permeable cores inflict. All MMs and MIs have this distortion. So do most MCs that offer relatively high output voltage in comparison to their impedance. So do Raul's beloved step-up transformers (^o^). But non-permeable core MC cartridges like the DL-S1, FR-7, JVC L-1000, Benz-Micro Ruby et al, don't. >Results seem very system dependant. A cartridge like the DL-S1 prefers to have as few electrical contacts between itself and the phono stage input as possible, and a v-e-r-y good phono stage. In this sense, their requirements are no different from any other low-output MC. A little bit more extreme in degree, that is all. That's interesting. I didn't know why those Denons had such high impedance and minuscule output. Some more considerations: A "forgiving" phono stage is not what I would recommend for the DL-S1, nor for that matter, any other LOMC. The obviously desirable properties for a good MC phono stage are high gain, low noise, high immunity to RF, high overload margins (which implies high maximum output levels), and minimal deviation from the RIAA curve. Low capacity within the input stage benefits resolution and sound quality, but this partly conflicts with the requirement for low noise, so the phono stage designer must keep a sense of balance and trade offs. One more critical requirement IMO is low capacitance between cartridge and phono stage, with the tonearm cable being the biggest contributor. The signal coils of the cartridge possess inductance, and this will react with any capacitance between the cartridge and phono stage to create a big resonant peak at ultrasonic frequencies (frequently in the RF range). This peak is much higher in frequency than any human can hear, but it can upset the circuitry of a phono stage that hasn't been designed with adequate consideration to RF or high-frequency overloading. This is eminently capable of of causing IMD at a much lower frequency, and this you can hear. This kind of IMD is quite obnoxious to the ear, since it is non-harmonically related to the LP signal, and therefore can sound outright dissonant. Reducing the input impedance at the phono stage helps squash the RF resonant peak and thereby can reduce the phono stage's IMD that the ear finds so grating, but in return such heavy loading throttles the dynamics, transients and low-level resolution of the cartridge. Far more advantageous, IMO, to use a phono stage that doesn't need for the cartridge to be throttled down to make it listenable. A phono stage designed according to this philosophy should have the side-effect of making records sound more quiet, because ticks and pops and tracking distortions will simply be treated as normal signals, and will not trigger circuit misbehavior. FWIW, I have never had the need to load down any cartridge to under 100 ohms, for any phono stage that I have designed, and believe that I could afford considerably higher loading than 100 ohms with the DL-S1. The loading situation with LOMCs is very different from MMs and MIs, where capacitance is needed to properly tailor the frequency response. I note that some designers of MC cartridges and phono stages use quite massive amounts of capacitance to roll-off any ultrasonic peak from the coil inductance-cable capacitance resonant peak, but personally I have found this approach to take away more than it gives. So there you have it. The loading down with < 100 ohms came from somebody on Asylum who loads it at 30 ohms. You lose half the output doing that. I didn't go below 100. My AHT phono has almost no capacitance. If I knew the situation I could have gotten a couple of caps and tried that. That overtone thing I heard was probably IMD. I guess system dependent was right after all. Now I think I know why. ______________________ Are you guys sure I am not way over my head with this cart? |
Regarding setup of the cart you MUST invest in a decent tool, something like this would be the minimum I recommend https://www.musicdirect.com/analog-accessories/pro-ject-align-it-cartridge-alignment-gauge There are many other similar setups that can cost a whole lot more but do not try and do it with some flimsy paper wotsit printed off the net |
When you have a spare minute set yourself up a simple gain-cascade spreadsheet that you can play around with (the math is 10 to the power gain in any step/20, where gain is in dB) In practice it usually only matters in the pre to power step, that’s assuming you are not overloading an input at any prior stage. If you find you are operating the volume control at 75% of range or more you may be tight on gain. Also it’s a good idea to match gain between sources so that you don’t suddenly switch from one to the other and blow your speakers. Many modern preamps allow you to adjust sensitivity at the inputs for just this reason. Also many digital components have adjustable output levels for the same reason. Finally be aware that many manufacturers do not implement balanced outputs well and a single ended connection may sound better. This is certainly the case with my DCS stack, it sounds notably better connected single ended (using exactly the same brand and length of cable) - you should check if this is the case with your Bricasti, don’t assume that they have done balanced well |
Might need some advice / help / tips on mounting my cart? Is there simple rule of thumb or technique I can use or do I need spend hours reading how to stumble though the Rega Arc Baerwald protector found on Vinyl Engine and HiFi News’ Analogue Test Record? It just seems daunting for a newbie like me? This part takes the fun away. I am sure once I have done it and get a feel for it then all will be well but I don't even know what I don't know. Once you know what you don't know things always get easier and was just wondering if there is anyway to help slim down the learning curve. |
I do like the idea of learner more about matching the entire chain - not something I ever really considered. My Bricasti M1SE run via balanced IC's to Levinson No.326s preamp balanced to my Pass X350.5 never had to worry about enough voltage gain and worrying about any of that but I see how the .15 needs more gain to make it all work via my Magico S5's. Thats cool info. Just wasn't on my radar so great info for me. Just as a simple rule of thumb with this gear and now not using a SUT and of course my VPI runs via single ended but the No.326s says it converts everything to real balanced out which seems kind of cool. What min voltage will allow full access to all my gain. .3 or .6 or somthing like that? Just curious because I have no idea how to calculate it or how you did and vaguely understand it but only because I have never had to think about it but I like to learn about better understanding this. Thank you |
@, it does not matters if OTL design ( problem is not only the transformers and only one additional to everything. ) and when I talk about tubes I'm speaking too of phonolinepreamp that at the end is more near the thread subject than amps. Btw, you did not read adequated what I posted bu matters due that you use tubes and horns that are two forbidden items in music/sound reproduction. Of course your phonolinepreamp is atube ones: which is its output impedance? Digital?, well is so superior to LP but it's useless to discuss with a well AHEE educated pupil. Shame of the corrupted AHEE. R. |
@rauliruegas once again you make a hyperbolic and extreme souffle of nonsense out of some helpful advice. As you very well know gain matching is not only a matter of enabling the amp to deliver its rated output, if and ever needed, but is also about operating any volume control in the ideal range (i.e. towards the lower half or middle in most cases). In my own system going from a setup that delivered 60% of maximum rated input to one that delivered 300% was night and day -- the latter sounds so much more open and dynamic and allows me to operate the volume control at 30-40% of range rather than 70-80% and actually obviates the need for any gain in the pre-amp at all (i.e. I operate the pre-amp at below unity gain) Gain matching is a matter of care across the full cascade and it ties one hand behind your back if your cascade cannot deliver full rated input to your amp. My observation was simply to suggest that he might care for a few dB more to guarantee this, not least if he should ever change his pre-amp or more likely decide to switch to a single ended rather than balanced configuration with the commensurate loss of gain across the chain |
Raul yes I got it. And to throw another wrench at your superior knowledge I run otl as well. Even the op who is admittedly not an expert knows that the most linear device is a triode. So remove the output transformer from the equation and it is far more linear and lower in distortion than any solid state amp as long as YOU ARE DRIVING AN APPROPRIATE LOAD. Such as no crazy impedance dips or phase angles and something efficient so the amp is barely working. Granted if I were running apogee scintilla speakers I would need solid state, but I would not choose speakers such as that anyway. Im just sick of reading your Bs bias against tubes because it is just plain wrong! You are on here presenting yourself as an irrefutable expert, speaking in absolutes, and minimizing distortions and blah blah blah and unfortunately some folks might believe you! You don't make any distinctions between the different types of distortions and that is a huge factor! I know many guys like you, lots of money to throw at audio so you buy everything under the sun. Obviously spending that kind of dough you are going to end up with decent sound at some point and you think that makes you an authority. Tubes done properly and driven properly are lower in distortion and sound more realistic to me, and many others, than solid state. Vinyl done properly sounds more realistic and has far better emotional involvement, than digital. IMO and many others as well. |
Dear @folkfreak : """ which is short of the 2.6V rated for maxiumum output for your X350.5. """ the OP speakers are rated as 4ohms and 90db sensitivty. That apm at that impedance puts 700 watts full power. Do you know when the OP will need the full rated power of the Pass with the S1 cartridge?: never. @fsmithjack linearity is only one characteristic in an active part device but here we are talking of an amplifier or preamplifier not one single/specific part of the amplifier that’s the sum of its parts and excecution quality of the overall design that includes the parts selection. An amplifier needs to have a really wide and flat frequency, with very low noise and overall distortion levels ( different kind of distortions. ), that can handle with no trouble the complex impedance/phase angle of the speaker curve, steady and both channels measuring and performing identically, enough headroom, trusty always over time, that the input signal does not has to pass for hundred of meters through amp transformers like usually happens with tubes, etc, etc, etc, @analogluvr , got it? R. |
@fsmithjack not sure if you’ve pulled the trigger on the clearaudio yet but this is a brand of cartridges that has a house sound, one many like but one that others (me included) have never warmed too frankly if I was in your shoes I’d be sorely tempted by this setup - the tunability feature is very clever and you would also lean a lot about what you are looking for - price is also attractive and in line with your budget https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/musikraft-denon-dl-103-phonograph-cartridge/ |