Stillpoints or Audio Points, has anyone compared

Fiddler your speakers as you described previous were never direct coupled to the floor underneath the carpet and the Persian rug combo. If you had removed the Persian rug and tried the use of Audiopoints under your speakers I feel certain the points would have penetrated the normal pad and carpet thus coupling the speakers to ground. Today I installed Audiopoints under a set of Revel Studios and a pair Sistrum platforms under a pair of the large Revel subs. The room has a supended floor over a crawl space. The floor was laminated of 1/4 cork between two layers of 3/4 inch plywood. A wool felt pad was used under a wool carpet. The Audiopoints and the Sistrum were installed after the same system had been in use for over a year. The Audiopoints made a great improvement not subtle ..much better focus much less blur to the bass. Sistrum platforms were then added under the subs..Much tighter, less cabinet noise finding its way up into the midrange, deeper bass faster and less intrusive into the music. The key I feel is that the points must be direct coupled to the surfaces that they come into contact with. Why succeed in decoupling a device that is a coupling device. Speakers I feel really need to be coupled and for many reasons. One great one is for better phase and time alignment. The self induced cabinet motion of a decoupled speaker playing music on a carpeted floor will be greater than the excursion of that same speakers' tweeter. So much for time alignment. I am a dealer..Tom

Hogwash? Fiddler, you misinterpreted just about every point I made.

You didn't seem to like my hyperbola about zip cord and Jena Lab cables and you tried to make it sound pointless. It was hyperbola to stress a point. But if you think it's hogwash, go get the zip cord and try it.

You also misinterpreted my statement about still receiving small improvements with Audio Points but without a decent racking system and Audio Points under the rack.

I made it very clear that improvements would still occur. But that the vast improvements will most likely only occur when you execute the all-or-nothing approach.

Let's try this analogy. Think of the air-borne vibrations as lightning and the components as lightning rods. And think of the Audio Points, rack, and Audio Points under the rack as the grounding cable connecting the lightning rod to ground.

Assume there is a lightning storm and that all lightning will be strike the rod and then re-directed to ground.

Well, air-borne vibrations work the exact same way. You can have the best lightning rod in the world (audio components), but unless it's connected to ground you've compromised the performance of the lightning rod. The Audio Points act as a conduit to provide an exit path for the lightening to transfer away from the rod. But it's the racking system and Audio Points under the racking system that act as the final conduit to ground.

In this example, the music represents the lightning, the component represents the rod, points/rack/points represent the groudning cable. If you substitute a poor rack for a good rack, you're grounding cable may still work, but will certainly become less effective. That's the point I was trying to make previously.

As for the flooring systems? Some to many and I would venture a guess that up to 80% of all audiophiles have suspended wood flooring systems. In fact, my last room was a suspended hardwood flooring system and my current flooring system is suspended with perhaps plywood as the underlayment.

Please stop using the concrete slab vs. suspended hardwood flooring systems as it doesn't substantiate your perspective no matter how much you think it may.

You said, "So what is the common denominator here? Vibrapods. On both my speakers and my components, same result. Without the Vibrapod/Formica setup on my transport, I could feel incredible vibration with my hand; I had horrible soundstaging, bloat and confusion. Immediately upon installing the Vibrapod/Formica idea, not one bit of vibration could be felt on my transport no matter how loudly I played heavy bass material. And my system took a huge leap."

Are you saying that installing Vibrapods under your transport also eliminated any air-borne vibrations captured by the transport as well?

That's some vibrapod.

-IMO

I haven't compared the Stillpoints to the Vibrapods, but can tell you that the combination of the Harmonic Resolution Systems Nimbus Discs/Nimbus along with the Stillpoints is amazing. The two systems work well together and seem to cover up the bad points of each system, while allowing the positive to shine through.

Tom, if you read my post I was the first to say I didn't think the Audiopoints had ever penetrated my Persian rug and wool pad beneath it. I realize the Audiopoints are most effective when they are coupled to the floor, but if the points couldn't get through my rug...nothing I can do about that. I certainly am not going to change the rug! It’s a multi-thousand dollar rug and we bought it from an interior design standpoint.

But Robert at StarSound was certain the spikes would work on my carpet/pad and suspended floor and was also adamant that the coupling discs would work on top of the carpet, just not quiet as well as without them. Either way he said I would experience a huge improvement.

And I don't doubt that you experienced exactly what you said you experienced today with the Revels. In contrast, I am telling you what didn't work in my room (for whatever reasons) and what made an amazing difference. Nothing more I can add to that.

Stehno, sorry if I misinterpreted your points. Wasn't intentional.

But I still take exception to this statement:

"Please stop using the concrete slab vs. suspended hardwood flooring systems as it doesn't substantiate your perspective no matter how much you think it may."

No, let me tell you what substantiates my perspective and reduces yours to nonsense. I have been in this room everyday for the last year and a half and you have never set foot in it.

Until you come hear my room and my floor your comment simply smacks of arrogance. Do a search here and at AA. Numerous others have experienced the exact same problem with suspended hardwood floors and in virtually every instance coupling excited the floor more and made the problem worse. The only successful solution for several others before me was the Vibrapod sandwich solution.

You keep talking about the energy getting to ground. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! In my room, the suspended hardwood floor resonates like crazy at certain bass frequencies if my speakers are sitting directly on the floor. You can talk till you are blue in the face. I have lived this scenario every day. I know what has exacerbated the problem and what has cured it.

The point you seem to be missing is that the energy can't get to ground. Don't you get that. Sure some of it will eventually get there, but it has to travel across all of the sub-flooring and floor joists before it finally gets to a point of exit which would be pillars beneath the floor which go to the foundation. By that time the damage is done. The floor has already been vibrating like a drum before the vibrations get to the pillars. No way around that. The energy simply can't jump across all of the floor joists to the pillars.

And your analogy of the lightening rod is excellent. You prove my point. The lightening (airborne vibrations) can't immediately get to ground because there is no direct path in my floor for the lightening to go to ground. It has to go in a convoluted way to find the ground. And again, the damage is already done. I don't understand why you can't grasp that.

Since I can't efficiently get the airborne vibrations and/or the vibrations from my coupled speakers to the ground before they have already have caused a lot of damage, I have chosen to convert them to heat with the Vibrapods. End of story. It works. The bass is fast, articulate, great slam, focus, etc. with the Vibrapod solution. Everything else is dramatically improved, as well. And there is virtually no floor excitation/boom to the point that I have to ask myself if I can even hear any at all.

I find it interesting that some of you guys are prone to tell me and others that what we are experiencing is simply wrong when we are the ones with first-hand experience with our particular situations. It is simply laughable that you are wasting any time at all trying to contradict what I am telling you about my "real world" experience in MY room!

I know what I hear and what I have experienced in my room. And my experience is exactly the same as many others here if you will take the time to do a search.

Stehno, sorry if I seem agitated, but it is frustrating when someone tells me that my own personal experience isn't what in fact it is.

I do appreciate your feedback and everyone else's, as well. But it seems that anytime anyone questions Sistrum products and or their claims around here (or in my case, has actual disappointing results) the gang piles on. That's okay, as I am confident in what I know to be true in my personal experience and I have never been one to be intimidated by the crowd.

The simple truth is I wanted the Audiopoints to work. They are cheap enough and I was hoping to find a starting place for vibration control as I head into upgrading my system next year.

I am a firm believer in tweaking and I am always open to things that work in my system. But if something doesn't work in my system, I am not afraid to say so. I simply try to state how a product performs in MY system. And I never go out of my way to slam or bash a product. I simply say my peace about my experience and move on.

As I said before. I am sure Audiopoints is an excellent product given the right set of circumstances. The circumstances simply weren't right in my situation.

Oops, I almost forgot your last question:

"Are you saying that installing Vibrapods under your transport also eliminated any air-borne vibrations captured by the transport as well?"

Where did you get that? No, I simply said I couldn't feel any vibrations with my hand after installing the Vibrapods. I am sure there are micro-vibrations at work that I can't feel, but what does that have to do with anything. If I had Audiopoints under my transport the same airborne vibrations would be working on my transport and hopefully the Audiopoints would transfer them away to the ground.

Well, my DH Labs cones under all of my components do the same thing, with one exception. (And who knows, maybe the DH cones aren't as effective as Audiopoints after all, but I didn't hear any difference).

The only difference between the Audiopoints concept and my current setup with the DH Labs cones/Formica/Vibrapods is that the Audiopoints work by transferring the vibrations to ground in an appropriate rack system and my DH Labs transfer the same vibrations to the Vibrapods to convert them to heat.

You know a thought just entered my mind. I don't know about your floor, but my floor joists span 14 feet across the room (32 feet long) without any pillars at all beneath them. This is one big drum head. The entire width of the room is open beneath the floor with pillars only on each side of the room. Maybe your room spans only eight feet or so without pillars. Another factor is my floor is a minimum of six feet above the ground progressing to seven feet. I suspect floors that are closer to the ground may not be as prone to the drum effect due to a more limited reverberant cavity. I obviously don't know shit about this stuff, but it makes sense to me.

I purchased screw jacks as a last resort to use with timbers to tighten up my floor in lieu of pillars (which would give the vibrations a more direct path to ground). I thought I would try the Audiopoints first, but I ended up with the Vibrapod solution instead. As good as the results are with the Vibrapods, I have absolutely zero interest or need to address the floor.

Since we built this house a year and a half ago and we will only be in it another two years or so before we build a larger custom home with a dedicated listening room, I don't really want to hassle any more than I have to with the floor. Otherwise, if we were staying in this house long-term, I would have a contractor come out and add additional footings and pillars under the floor.

But one thing is for sure. Our next home is going to have a dedicated listening room on a concrete pad!

Fiddler, would you please explain "pre-mounted Travertine on a non-resonant material". What exactly is it you purchased...and where? Later in your posts you mention Formica. This Formica material and the pre-mounted Travertine material are being used separately in your system, correct?