PMC vs. ATC

I have a feeling you two know each other ;-). I heard both speakers in exactly the same system dem - there is no issue of a "bad dem". It was a dealer dem with both speakers at the same time and was repeated accross several dealers. Your comments that I should have known that I was getting a bad dem but failed to perceive this are therefore pure supposition, incorrect and therefore irrelevent. I have had plenty of bad dems in the past and lots of dealer rhetoric and I know it instantly - you are doing it now. The self proclaimed "expert" trying to use his "expert" status instead of anything more substantial. ;-)

ATC are first and foremost a studio desk monitor company and that is what their products are designed for. Read their website. PMC are mastering suite monitors and that is something compeltely different. PMC are not a "copy" of ATC - they sound very different. I would suggest that repeated listening to megadeth at 110db+ has perhaps permanantly damaged your hearing if you cannot hear the difference ;-)! In terms of sound the atc has classic desk monitor balance while the PMC is much closer to the BBC sound.

The PMC has greatest advantage over the atc in the midrange, they orignally used the atc unit many years ago but switched to their own and this caused performance to leap forward, where it has remained. The extra "detail" of the atc is merely a treble boost relative to the PMC. Once that effect has worn off in perception then the PMC reveals it is more detailed and the treble is in better perspective.

You make a lot of baseless assumptions - "bad dems" or that I have not listened to the latest variants - in an attempt to undermine my remarks. Sorry but it won't work - stick to the facts.

Brizon,

I don't have to read the websites I have measured the speakers talked to the designers and have measurements that unless you requested them from the manufacturers yourself or worked there do not have.

Yeah they sound a little different but again like you mentioned the ATC's require close to wall placement and PMC's do not. If you pull ATC's out into the room you greatly affect their tonal balance to the negative. And where I disagree with you is this night and day portrayal of these speakers. As for BBC sound?, that is garbage, why would a Mastering monitor require a nearfield small speaker patch up?

Expert status like yours?, are you a tourist or the real deal bro, don't poke around. If you understand impulse response and IMD then don't play coy. Lets chat it up and educate the folks about how a speaker works.

Look I really don't want to go on and on I stated my case and my experience. Let it get sorted out from there. If you want to talk real tech then give me some real reasons other than your tourist perspective.

The ATC's are sharp and ATC are always having to mouth spiel about "accuracy" and "harsh recordings" to sell them. They are designed for mix analysis - that is where atc started and where they sold to the studios. That is their history and that is fact. Neither impulse response or IMD are relevent here you are just tossing in technical terms to try to make yourself look like an expert, hoping that I don't know what they mean and will back down. Unfortunately I understand them very well. The very fact that you have used terms that have no relevence prooves you are not an expert. Let's talk tweeter characteristics and crossover voicing. That is where the atc problem lies and they are voiced that way for a reason. It also explains why ATC have problems selling domestically in comparison to pmc who are the fastest growing audio company in the uk on the back of their domestic sales.

As I said in my previous emails throwing your baseless suppositions and trying to claim a position of superiority just doesnt work. It stands or falls by the facts and the listening experience. I didn't claim expert status - you did - so I don't have to defend myself as a "tourist". Incidentally I mentioned nothing about speaker placement (which influences the bass). However, PMC are a transmission design with a full bass and very effective room loading so benefit from free space siting. ATC have neither of these advantages so doubtless benefit from rear wall reinforcement. Which has nothing to do with the harshness of the atc anyway. As for the bbc sound the pmc owes a lot to that heritage and voicing - the designers were ex-bbc engineers and wanted to develop a full range design based on that ethos. Which they did - and forms the basis of my assertion.

I don't need a high frequency response plot to know a speaker is sharp if my ears are bleeding!

You are an atc dealer on audiogon. I seriously question your impartiality in this matter and beleive you are writing this for the benefit of potential customers that might be reading this. You must be aware I am not going to fall for it but plenty of audiophiles are pretty gullible and will fall for dealer rhetoric. I hope my response will make them think twice.

You're right Brizon, we're all in collusion against you. Stereophile is out to get you too.
You've gotta check out Audio Asylum. I can just imagine you and RGA going at it!
Happy 7 day anniversary as an Audiogon member :-).

"That is their history and that is fact. Neither impulse response or IMD are relevent here you are just tossing in technical terms to try to make yourself look like an expert, hoping that I don't know what they mean and will back down."

No actually I was hoping you had more than some listening experiences that directly conflicts with my own. Are your experiences more valid that mine? See we are in a dead lock, what I hear versus what you hear is juxtaposed. But I thought maybe you'd explain how the PMC midrange is better than the ATC? Thought maybe you'd have some facts, my laying down the rules of engagement was to add some structure on what level I wished to discuss this vast improvement you claim for the PMC has come about and how it manifests itself as superior in the design. I am listening to what you have to say, It be nice to learn something on this forum.

You are the one who keeps upping the stakes and we've got a long way to go before I'm all in if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately, what I hear is junior league sales training coming from you and the reason I know is because I went through it myself. In your posts you seem to want to overlook that the ATC is designed to go against or in the wall which will have it load the room even better than a T-Line, especially when placed in the wall.

As I posted earlier it is only a matter of time before I am a PMC dealer too, I have not said once that the ATC is better than the PMC what this discussion is about is that ATC's are not as bad as you portray. I think I've said that like 5 times now.

Up till now you are the one who wants to to validate your experiences and you are the one who has put himself in this position by making outrageous statements justifying you opinion and experiences. Don't tire out on me now, I'm just seeing if you can back it up. Do you have a problem with that? If you want I can back it up, just ask me, what do you want to know?

"They are designed for mix analysis - that is where atc started and where they sold to the studios."

That is not what Billy Woodman told me, what did he tell you?

"I don't need a high frequency response plot to know a speaker is sharp if my ears are bleeding!"

So speaker manufactures like PMC and ATC (same level of professionals use their equipment world wide) become respected world over and yet the ATC's are flawed to the point where they make your ears bleed. See how ludicrous your comments are? And yet the typical weak *ss tactic of "I didn't claim expert status - you did - so I don't have to defend myself as a "tourist"", well you seem quite certain that I'm out of line and so I thought that required you knowing something I don't? So I thought you'd share some real facts not some sales back story. Instead you've flexed your Clintonesque skills of talking around the point and trying to make me the topic when its the speakers I want to talk about.

"Let's talk tweeter characteristics and crossover voicing. That is where the atc problem lies and they are voiced that way for a reason."

So what is wrong with the SEAS tweeter?

http://www.seas.no/SEAS%20by%20Excel.htm,

I'd like your opinion the link will get you to the site. And if the ATC's measure flat +/- 1 dB in room from 1200-16,000hz where is the peaky voicing?

C'mon dude slam dunk me, I'm not guarding the hoop, its wide open. Just one interesting relevant fact about the PMC's or ATC's performance to justify that the ATC makes you run from the room and the PMC is the cat's pajamas.

What about the tweeter, do you know what the distortion is for that tweeter at 3Khz?

None of what you told me already means anything...T-Line does not make a speaker tolerable and one intolerable. I'm looking for something good like the rise time of the midrange has been improve X%...I'll be waiting, don't let me down.