Vandersteen 2C vs. Klipsch Cornwall

Apples and oranges, indeed. I'd choose the apples.

Thanks for the replies so far and please keep them coming.

I own the 2Cs and I've heard other Vandys; I know the 5 is popular and I really liked the 4 when I heard those. I dismissed Klipschs (and JBLs and a bunch of other stuff) in the 1970s, and I know that from an audiophile perspective that the Vandy's are theoretically more tonally accurate and phase coherent, etc., and I realize we're talking "apples and rutabegas" as Swampwalker says, but something that Jaybo said resonated with me highly: "just get me off this merry-go round", and also "screw hi end, let's rock".

I'm a big ARC fan and have had several of their tube amps and preamps; currently I'm driving the the 2Cs with an ARC solid state D400MkII - which is surprisingly good and has plenty of guts; no doubt the system gear is all reasonably good including an ARC CD3MkII. But I had a chance to hear a pair of Cornwalls that were driven by an all-in-one (CD, tuner, amp nearly a boom box) with probably 26 gauge speaker wire with both speakers sitting side by side (a foot apart) in a small bedroom and I could tell there was a lot of fun music coming out; and there are clearly a lot of big fans of Cornwalls who have very happily kept their speakers for many years. And I'm thinking set up properly in a room with a good 300B amp they might just boogie but still be "delicate" and "defined" with good "texture" and most importantly, get me out of "analytic land". On the other hand, they might be fatiguing and short lived.

The thought of a 100dB or so sensitivity speaker that could let a tube amp do some magic is kind of intriguing - but since I prejudicially ruled out Klipsch (and some other brands) about 35 years ago it’s kind of hard to go over to the “not real official high end gear dark side”. But maybe it’s worth a try?

In general, I’d day that if after 35 years I’m still looking, I haven’t found what I’m seeking, and so maybe I ought to look elsewhere. Having said that, a few years ago I went on the full ascent and went for some Soundlab M3 electrostats and some mondo ARC and VTL tube amps and I determined that I could never get from here to there not because the SLs and the tube gear wasn’t great (the system was awesome in several respects; the detail, definition, and imaging were exquisite) but because my room is marginal at best; it’s almost big enough (about 18 x 12) but after listening and studying my room carefully with a spectrum analyzer I discovered my room just has crummy dimensions, reflections, nulls, etc. that all result in some strange frequency response curve. I came to the conclusion that the room is half or more of the end result, sold the gear and gave up. If I could build a custom room (probably along the lines of what Cardas recommends), I'd go back to the Soundlab electrostat and deluxe tube gear route, no doubt.

Anyway, being a committed hifi-er - I can quit any time I want, I just don’t want to :), I started over again with the Vandy 2Cs (and some DQ-10s which are also very good), but I’m stuck again and it’s probably the room – but just maybe, for some reason, even with or despite the room issues, the Cornwalls and a Sophia 300B would be the ticket. Or maybe the room is just lousy and I should quit fighting acoustics and physics.

- one last thing: I read that the big Klipsch's want to be in the corners, but that smaller models like the Cornwalls are less room placement sensitive; it's hard for me to understand how speakers don't have to couple with the room in some particular respect includng positioning relative to each other and relative to the the room in order to get a coherent image and a proper frequency response, but maybe Cornwalls can sound good, or at least "fun" in a wider range of rooms than more traditional "high end" gear?

My goal use to be to have near perfect music reproduction including accurate frequency response, with great air, imaging, texture, definition, and detail - but at this point, I'd settle for enjoyable and fun. I just want to put on the music and enjoy the music.

I guess the answer is "it's probably just one more crap shoot investment in some gear that could probably be resold, so why not give it a try?" - but any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

Another perspective. I have owned both 2Cs and KG4s and currently own Klipsch Fortes.

First, to correct a misconception, the Cornwalls are called Cornwalls because they work both in the corner of the room or at the junction of floor and wall, ie against the back wall.

At a measured 83db sensitivity, the Vandy is just teriffically inefficient. Granted, the impedance is relatively invariant and the phase angle is not as bad as many modern speakers, which makes it easy to drive. But the speaker represents the modern belief among designers that "watts is cheap". Which they are if you don't mind cuddling up with a nice high power solid-state amp or if you don't want to play your music loud, or if you limit your cravings to madrigals and Diana Krall.

But I always liked the small EL-34 tube amps, and could never get enough heft and weight out of them with modern speakers. It just was not a good match. When I switched to high sensitivity speakers, I was not only surprised that the 12-50 watt tube amps had the drive and heft that I wanted in my music, but also that the much lower harmonic and IM distortion products in horn speakers, as compared to direct radiators, which I always had believed were below the threshold of audiblility, turned out to be quite audible and just my cup of tea. Horns and tubes sound very relaxed and free of strain. On the other hand, they will never image like the Vandys. And though I only go to a couple of concerts a month, I never really hear this type of imaging in the concert hall, though that is for another discussion.

I will say, if you prefer pinpoint imaging, lack of box colorations and great clarity, you will enjoy the Vandys. If dynamic sweep, weight and lack of strain is your cuppa jo, you may just prefer the Klipsh's. The good news is that both hold their value quite well and if you make the wrong choice it should be easy to get out of.

Viridian, that was very helpful - thanks. A few questions, please/thanks:
1. When you mentioned pinpoint imaging, do you mean the Klipsch's have no pinpont imaging or that they have almost no imaging at all other than "stereo"?
2. Please say more about what box coloration means and how much of it exists with the Klipsch's vs. the Vandys and how that impacts the musical enjoyement or lack thereof.
3. Are you saying the Klipsch's have as much weight or more weight or a lot more weight vs. the Vandys? Is that a reference mostly to the low end, or something else?
4. What does dynamic sweep mean?

I do like "pinpoint imaging" but I'm not getting that in my room from the Vandys; I did get it from the Soundlabs in the same room - although that could be the difference between not only the speakers but also the ARC solid state amp used with the Vandys and the ARC tube amps used with the SLs.

And to your point, I would definitely like to get past my Diana Krall and half a dozen other AB recordings. Your description of the Kipsch/tube amp experience seems pretty encouraging.

- one last question; can you typically put the Cornwalls right up against the back wall without getting bloat or do they need to be out some distance?

Thanks - and if any other posters want to chime in, all comments are highly welcome!

First, I would like to respectfully disagree with Krisjan's statement that, "The Vandy will be better (i.e. more natural sounding) in every sense except senitivity - the Klipsch is VERY sensitive (102 dB/watt) and can use flea-powered amps." I take issue with this both technically, and in practice, as horn loaded drivers have inherently lower harmonic and IM distortion than direct radiators, because the diaphragms move less for a given loudness. Rise time is faster and the coil remains in the sweet spot of the magnetic gap. Look at any independent tests of horn loaded drivers, Stereophile is a good source, and you will see lower distortion. Is this swamped by secondary reflections off of the horns themselves, the front baffles, etc.? That is for the listener to decide. I have made up my mind.

The Cornwalls should ONLY be used at the junction of the floor and wall, or in the corner, which is the way that they were designed. They should not be moved into the room. There are other speakers in the Heritage range that can be used out into the room, Quartet, Forte, Forte 2, Chorus 2, etc. These all have sensitivities around 95-98db as opposed to around 102db for the Cornwalls, so if your desire is to go single ended the Cornwalls may be the better choice, but if you want a bit better imaging and want greater freedom in positioning the other models may make more sense.

And while there are those that dismiss high sensitivity as an unimportant quality in speakers lest I remind them that, if a speaker is 10db less sensitive, one would have to have a 350 watt amp to achieve the same loudness level as a 35 watt amp would give. But absolute loudness is not an issue for most of us. How you get from soft to loud is, and horns are very, very fast and have very fine gradations in their dynamics. Just as they may give up detail to direct radiators, some will find that the natural dynamics are a worthwhile compromise.

And what do I mean by "scale", "weight" and "dynamic sweep"? Scale is simply the size of the image. Weight is the way the waveform launches when the speaker goes from quiet to loud. In many speakers, the frequency response subtly changes as they get quickly louder and the bass becomes deemphasized. Lags behind or down in level. A speaker with weight will hit you with the full impact of the bass as well as midrange and treble as it gets louder. The leading wave front is subjectively complete with everything arriving at once. You hear it in the concert hall and take it for granted. You make excuses for it not being there with many modern speakers. And sweep is more subjective but it is simply an emotional connection with the majesty of the sound.

Horns do not image precisely as a fine direct radiator like the Vandys do. They are less descriminating about those things going on at the edges and rear of stage. The center image is usually quite good, having tremendous body and substance, as if the body is full. But the edge definition is softer at the edges of the image without the sharp image outlines that the best speakers present. And detail is clearer on most direct radiators. I am in my local audio club and when I listen to my friends great systems - much greater than mine - I, and they, listen to the bass, the treble, the image, whatever. Horns put the presentation together in a way that mitigates that type of analysis.

But there is a price to pay. Put your hands around your mouth and talk. What you hear is a coloration. A horn coloration. A little boxy, and a little nasal. My sensory gating tends to not even notice it in my horns, but it is there, all of the time. Every minute. And high sensitivity speakers require big boxes, which are less dead and resonate more than small, well braced boxes. Rap a wood table, what you hear is box coloration.

There is one final point that I want to make, and that is that it is my belief that modern speaker design has been primarily been driven by domestic aestetics (the dreaded WAF) as well as by the audio press. The same audio press that embraced the earliest transistor gear. The same audio press that embraced the compact disc at its release, when it was not an acceptable medium for the storage of music. And the same audio press that must sell publications with the new and the newer. The flashy, the elegant. I believe that in the quest for the flavor of the month, physics and engineering have been given a back seat. The big man almost always beats the small man. There are many more Goliaths than Davids. Happy listening.