O-10, those are indeed beautiful records; glad we agree. The post was intended mostly for Ghosthouse as I would like to get a better sense of what he likes and doesn’t like in jazz guitar in order to put it all in better perspective so as to better understand his feeling that Metheny sounds "tired" in the recent clip.
Ghosthouse, nice comments. While I don’t agree that Metheny sounds tired and without conviction, my comments were not meant to suggest that his playing in that clip was an example of the greatest jazz guitar playing ever. I felt it would be interesting for those who have only heard him in his usual atmospheric, almost "New Agey" vibe to hear him in that setting. I do think that he doesn’t sound, tone-wise or ideas-wise, like anyone else; so, from that standpoint we don’t agree. I would still like to know, and more importantly, how you liked the performance as a whole; especially Brecker who is always the antithesis of tired.
One of the problems with sharing ideas in a necessarily limited venue like this is that it is always difficult to put the full meaning of our thoughts into words. Example: O-10 suggested, and I completely agree, that you should trust your own ears; iow, you don’t owe anyone an explanation of why you don’t like something (at least, that’s how I would explain it). Now, and of course, if there is going to be dialogue, without explanations dialogue is pointless. Here’s the bigger issue: I am not sure wether his comments were in reference to that particular clip or were general comments about one of his pet peaves, "stereotypical" jazz. This is not meant as a criticism of O-10 in any way; just a statement of fact. You and I agree that "straight ahead" Jazz by young players is not "automatically bankrupt" (great term). Why would it be? The Jazz in that clip is anything but "stereotypical"; hence my challenge for someone to post playing by older players that sounds like those guys. I don’t believe there is any. If we are talking about the level of intensity or commitment then that is a different story; those are values that apply to any style. Although I don’t like the term "stereotypical", were I to use it, it would apply to playing in a neo-swing, neo-hard bop style or things like the recreation of the music of Duke Ellington by bands like the LCJB. But even then, there is so much new music that can be considered hard-bop that is still far more adventurous harmonically and rhythmically than your typical Blue Note thing that it just makes the case for why that kind of label is fairly meaningless. I have always felt that we tend to paint these things with WAY too broad a brush. There is A LOT of nuance in Jazz that, in my experience, is often missed or overlooked in comparison to other genres where the visceral elements of the music are a bigger part of the overall aesthetic. As a possible example of what I mean:
You like Joey DeFrancesco’s "The Great Stream" solo more than Martino’s. Both are great solos by any standard, imo. DeFrancesco’s solo is undoubtedly more visceral. However, for me (and, I believe, from an objective point of view), while Martino plays within a narrower dynamic spread, I find his solo to have much more of what is acknowledged to be one of the hallmarks of great improvisation: musical logic. The kind of logic that ties his improvised musical ideas in a musical stream (😉) of notes from beginning to end; each new idea relates to the one that came before it so that the solo can stand on its own as a composition. DeFrancesco’s solo, great and exciting as it is, loses that focus at a few points and the ideas don’t relate to each other as completely and as logically. There are a couple of moments when, to my ears, he’s trying to figure out where to go next; not so with Martino. Anyway, just some thoughts on what rocks my boat. I love it when someone wants to explore new music and particularly when it is done, like you do, with an open mind and far more curiosity and eagerness than ego; kudos to you.
Inna, while our musical tastes are very different in some ways (not all) I, as perhaps you already know, completely agree with your premise about the objective/subjective issue. It’s too bad that you don’t find enough of interest here and I would only point out that on this thread the focus on particular styles is cyclical; perhaps "in a few weeks" the discussion topics will be more to your liking. I must say, however, that I find it curious that you were drawn to this thread when, by your own admission, you "stopped listening to classical jazz a long time ago". If you feel so inclined, I would be interested in more of your thoughts about the objective/subjective issue. Btw, Joe Zawinal is one of my favorite musicians.
Regards to all.
