What are the smallest speakers that are clean and flat down to 20hz?

Yes 20 hz and dynamic range which is why I tend to think larger drivers and speakers for that.   But how small can they be?     

Zu has yet to bowl me over in demos in regards to having that low end dynamic "meat on the bones" as I like to say but demos to date have been less than optimum conditions most liklely?

Mapman,

atmasphere stated:
" The room will have some influence certainly, but if you really want 20Hz response **with any sort of dynamic range**, its not going to be a small speaker. Note emphasis."

As far as a speaker being relatively flat down to 20hz, with 'any sort of dynamic range'.  I completely agree with Ralph and I seriously doubt many even exist, certainly no small  speakers/subs.  You're chasing a ghost and I think you may know it.

As far as 'the room will have some influence certainly'.  I completely disagree with Ralph on this because he is seriously underestimating the effect  the room has on bass response and has chosen to ignore the mountain of scientific data compiled on this subject and the single solution that has been proven to be successful in evening out and improving bass response in any room(Distributed Array Bass systems).  The room will be THE MAIN influence of how bass is perceived.   Even if your room is as big as a football field, and you have only 2 spkrs/subs along the front wall (and even if they're launching perfectly flat waves at 20hz from  these  2 points) the extremely long 20hz sound waves will reflect off of room boundaries eventually and cause peaks and nulls at specific positions in the room.  Given the exact room dimensions l x w x h and the boundary surfaces' materials, acoustical engineers can determine exactly where you will have peaks and nulls.

Sure, if the spkrs/subs and the listening position are kept in the middle of this huge space and away from room boundaries, these affects will be mitigated significantly but bass response will still not be even throughout the entire room.  The smaller your actual listening room, the more peaks and nulls will exist.  No amount of room treatments (bass traps, absorption panels and diffusing panels) or room analyzers/corrective sound processors (the ones that use microphones at the listening position for measuring and then equalizers to adjust frequencies to remedy inaccuracies like Room EQ Wizard and all the other systems built into receivers)  may be able to help a bit at 1 specific listening position but do virtually nothing for the numerous other positions in a room.  

Only multiple subs (experts say the more the better but a minimum of 3 subs) strategically positioned at setup process determined locations within a room will remedy bass peaks and nulls in a room and each room is unique since every room has different dimensions.  Trying to do this on the back-end with bass traps, panels, mics, analyzing software and corrective equalizing  (with sub locations initially selected haphazardly and literally at convenient open locations along the front wall) surprise, surprise, definitely does not work and is like trying to put out a fire with a squirt gun.....Go Figure!

  I apologize if I sound like I keep beating this horse/drum but the subject has apparently struck a nerve with me and I feel the ned to tell my story.  About 10 yrs. ago,  I  spent countless  hours experimenting with  positioning 1 and later 2 subs trying to get good bass response in my medium sized room with mixed results.  My first breakthrough occurred when I moved 1 of my 2 subs out into the room between my listening chair  and the front wall about halfway down the left wall.  I didn't know it at the time, but I had accidentally stumbled upon my own limited distributed array sub system.  Later, after months of internet research on how to achieve good home audio bass response, I discovered research white papers and articles from Dr. Earl Geddes, who has a PHD in Acoustical Sciences and currently is the  CEO of GedLee LLC which is a consulting firm that specializes in acoustics, audio, home theater and noise control.  This info concerned his research into achieving good bass response in business and home environments for both music and ht.
 I  have also learned a lot by talking and corresponding with James Romeyn of  James Romeyn Music and Audio in Utah.  James studied under Dr. Geddes for several years before opening his own company that trades in musical instruments and is a dealer for Audio Kinesis.  He is the person who convinced me to buy the Audio Kinesis DEBRA distributed Array Bass system and give it  try.

My main point is that my search for a good home audio bass system was not as simple as walking into an Audio store and buying a distributed array bass system.  It  has been more of a long journey that culminated with a satisfying discovery and excellent solution.  I'm writing this reply to illustrate that I've been at the same stage that many Audiogon members seem to be at; that is, posting on this forum searching for answers to their system bass performance woes  and seemingly believing the solution will be to just buy a certain brand and model sub, plop it down at some convenient open space along their system wall, and their system will suddenly have good bass response.

I know you have been a member here for a long time and  know, through encountering and reading many of your posts over the years, that you have a wealth of knowledge on a variety of audio subjects and have always communicated knowledgeably, articulately and conveyed relevant and helpful info in your posts.  

Precisely because of this, I was surprised you posted what you were in search of on this thread.  I thought you would understand the futility of what you were in search of. I was fairly certain that you knew very few speakers are capable of flat response down to 20 hz and the likely hood of finding a relatively small speaker/sub capable of doing so would be  approaching impossibility.

In conclusion, my current thought is that you posted your question  just to have a little fun by finding out what kinds of replies your paradoxical question would solicit.  

  Am I correct?

Thanks,
 Tim

Mapman
Yes 20 hz and dynamic range which is why I tend to think larger drivers and speakers for that. But how small can they be?

Mapman

From my experience depends on multiple factors.

1) Appropriate room size - to allow the bass wave to happen.
2) Capable speaker design/boxes. Physics here isn’t as picky about the shape. But the box volume and tuning (pipes in the box) need to be there.
3) Appropriate amps
4- Appropriate EQ.**

Standalone subs provide you with 2 - 3 - 4. This is why audiophile subs came out of the HT and Car domains and dominate 2 channel setups now - imo.

** Meaning controllable cut off points, phase, and DB control to boost as appropriate for music between different genres, and even within the same genre.  Give this to me in a remote control from my listening position or forgetaboutit !   :^) 

Ever see pics of Fully capable speakers you know go down to 20 hz but for some reason there is a sub or two tucked away in the pic? Some problems with this picture. Well you are hardly ever shown the whole room so anyone who has been through this can understand why it is happening. Could be 1) room is too small or less likely - too big 2) speakers have wife constraints and can not be put on the room loading points 3) amps can’t deliver the goods.
3 reasons at the top of my head.

I also agree with what Tim said about the multiple sub effect and room nodes. Some all out designs go one further and place woofers at the top of the tall speaker to deal with room nodes.

Just some thoughts

noble100,

Thanks for those kind remarks.

Yes we are on the same page on what is best. Also with Atmasphere on the size factor.

That is why I ask the question. I prefer simple and small, not large and/or many.

Totem Mani 2 has always interested me in this regard with its unique double bass driver design in a reasonably small monitor package.

For floor standers I feel my Ohm Walsh speakers with 8" driver for smaller rooms and 12" for larger are still my personal overall sound quality benchmark in this regard. There is a newer model the 5015 that adds built in powered subs which I suspect has to push the limits as well. But I’m always looking and wondering. Plus I think its an informative discussion in general.

Barefoot MM27 with two 10 inch woofers, two 5.25" midrange and a tweeter in a compact 20.5 x 9.5 x 15.5 inches cabinet are the closet thing to what the OP claims to want. It is like a bookshelf two way but having two JL fathom 110 built into each speaker - that is four 10 inch woofers!!!

These will easily outperform Ohm Walsh and any other speaker suggested here in terms of low end response, dynamic range and overall clean extreme high SPL - they are without doubt the smallest truly full range speakers on the market.

There are some nice speaker suggestions above and Totem, for example, make great speakers, as do Ohm, but in this rather stringent requirement of smallest and full range there is a clear leader that makes other speakers that "sound big" look like kids toys.