What are the smallest speakers that are clean and flat down to 20hz?
Mapman Mapman what is your objective here ? Are you looking for a silver bullet, all in one speaker for 2 channel music, or are you talking about standalone subs. Very different considerations for both. I am running rooms with both scenarios. Cheers |
Atmasphere Atmasphere - as you probably know I am a big fan of Bruce Thigpen. I consider him a genius. Bruce' sub is unique, it allows someone to feel a helicopter land in their space at 3 hz if they want. Be prepared to replace some windows, with neighbors knocking on your door. But even Bruce can't cheat Physics. His TRW sub is using the adjoining space next to the music room - as the box ! Mapman You know, this 20hz - 20khz audio thing.... imo it gets thrown around like car guys say 0 - 60 mph. How much real music even exists below 30 hz anyway ? Sure, we can look at the chart data. http://www.audio-issues.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/main_chart.jpg But it only tells a small part of what is going on. At least on the forum discussions here. For the real answer, imo, you need to talk to each person to find out what they listen to. Some want to feel no loss in DB below 50 hz with their music. Some want it light and tight. This may be due to an apartment room, fragile kidneys, who knows...... but light and tight is not how live music sounds. Also I can tell you from personal experience the guy that is 50, listening to 2 channel music, is listening to different music, and has different priorities, than my 22 year old son. Now I am managing to convert him slowly. I know this because he keeps asking me for music. But he can't afford a house or his own place. His truck is his room, and it uses two JL Audio subs. And his generation likes the bass loud - real loud. Not because he is deaf. This is because they are using the whole truck as a speaker and standing outside of it when they socialize. |
Mapman Mapman From my experience depends on multiple factors. 1) Appropriate room size - to allow the bass wave to happen. 2) Capable speaker design/boxes. Physics here isn’t as picky about the shape. But the box volume and tuning (pipes in the box) need to be there. 3) Appropriate amps 4- Appropriate EQ.** Standalone subs provide you with 2 - 3 - 4. This is why audiophile subs came out of the HT and Car domains and dominate 2 channel setups now - imo. ** Meaning controllable cut off points, phase, and DB control to boost as appropriate for music between different genres, and even within the same genre. Give this to me in a remote control from my listening position or forgetaboutit ! :^) Ever see pics of Fully capable speakers you know go down to 20 hz but for some reason there is a sub or two tucked away in the pic? Some problems with this picture. Well you are hardly ever shown the whole room so anyone who has been through this can understand why it is happening. Could be 1) room is too small or less likely - too big 2) speakers have wife constraints and can not be put on the room loading points 3) amps can’t deliver the goods. 3 reasons at the top of my head. I also agree with what Tim said about the multiple sub effect and room nodes. Some all out designs go one further and place woofers at the top of the tall speaker to deal with room nodes. Just some thoughts |
Mapman imo - The smart speaker manufacturer realizes most rooms do not support 20 hz, and builds this EQ into the speakers design for the full range models. The speakers can handle it if they were designed to. In some cases this changes the load the speaker is looking for and actually makes them easier for the amp. I can give an example if you like. |
Something different Bass Test for Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0U5qunTUJk&index=1&list=RDD0U5qunTUJk |
@dsnyder0cnn thanks for posting the pic of the room. Wanted to share a past experience I had. Used to have a setup with full range speakers that needed to be close to the rooms side wall boundaries to achieve the low.. lows, with side treatment much like in your picture. I used the mirror technique. I then changed out amps - actually two different amps and noticed something interesting. I was able to move the speakers away from side walls significantly, but did not lose the low frequencies. The amp that could not produce the low, lows with those speakers, was a 300 wpc Class A/b. Both replacement amps that were able to - 600 wpc Class A and 100 wpc Tube Push Pull Amp. The previous amp was checked out as ok. It also happened (I have sold it since) to be a brand that is very much paired with the speakers used. i found this interesting. @the OP - Mapman So ....did you try that Phil Collins In The Air Tonight bass link test I posted earlier through your main rig yet ? Interested to know what happened. Cheers |
Mikapen There is no doubt to myself, about this effect. It is very important. For the others benefit I post a link on some info to it. http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/ " What is it? The Fletcher Munson Curve is a graph that illustrates an interesting phenomenon of human hearing. When listening to music through your studio monitors or headphones… As the actual loudness changes, the perceived loudness our brains hear will change at a different rate, depending on the frequency. Here’s what I mean: • At low listening volumes – mid range frequencies sound more prominent, while the low and high frequency ranges seem to fall into the background. • At high listening volumes – the lows and highs sound more prominent, while the mid range seems comparatively softer. Yet in reality, the overall tonal balance of the sound remains the same, no matter what the listening volume." |
Interesting design the Kii Three A review here - pdf download available in English. http://kiiaudio.com/en/press.html I found the "StudioMagazin" review a good read over coffee this morning. from the review. The Kii Three was designed to provide extremely deep bass from a relatively small and surprisingly lightweight cabinet. An additional objective was to create dispersion characteristics equalling those of a flush mount monitor, notwithstanding the relatively narrow baffle. The smaller the loudspeaker front, the earlier (higher in frequency) the speakers dispersion will become omnidirectional – an unwelcome property in loudspeakers that studio planners go to great lengths to avoid. Room acoustics issues appear predominantly at low frequencies and when trying to achieve precise stereo imaging. While the latter can be optimized by comparatively simple measures, taming the low frequencies takes a much larger effort (see also our special edition Room Acoustics and Studio Design, June 2016). This is where the Kii Three comes in, creating a consistent cardioid sound field all the way down to just short of 50Hz, then gradually becoming omnidirectional below this point. With the Speaker placed close to a wall and thus at an acoustically benign boundary distance, the resulting level increase below 50Hz can easily be treated in a compensation filter. All this complex signal processing costs the user dearly – not financially, but by introducing a latency of 90 milliseconds which would disqualify the Kii Three for any kind of real time work in the control room. To avoid this, the monitor can be set to a low latency mode by pushing a button marked “P/R“ on the back panel, reducing the latency to only a handful of DSP samples plus the DAC latency for a total value in the one millisecond range. The low latency mode replaces the highly complex low frequency filters by simplified algorithms, leaving the sonic properties of the monitor basically unchanged. The only tradeoff is reduced precision at low frequencies, but at a very reasonable magnitude with only small impact on aural evaluation. |
from the manual http://www.kii.audio/phocadownload/Kii_THREE_manual_online_EN.pdf Technical Specifications: Compact DSP controlled monitor speaker 4x 6.5” woofer, 1x5” midrange, 1” waveguided tweeter, all individually driven Amplification: 6x250W full-custom Ncore Active Wave Focusing crossover filter Frequency response: 20Hz to 25kHz +/- 0.5dB Phase response: minimum (best possible time coherence). Long term SPL(*): 105dB Short term SPL(*): 110dB Peak SPL: 115dB Controlled Directivity: 4.8dB (80Hz - 1kHz, slowly rising thereafter) Size: 20x40x40cm, 8”x16”x16” (WxHxD) Weight: 15kg (33lbs) Inputs: Analogue, AES/EBU Selectable correction for free-standing, near wall or in corner |
