ARC Ref 5se inferior to LS28?


This is what a big dealer told me the other day. Dealer speak or right on the money? Would very much like to hear opinions of the many knowledgeable ARC users on Audiogon. Thanks

4425
I'm an ARC fan. I own a ph8 phonostage and a Ref 3 pre. As we know, companies make products to different price points. That is another way of saying "consumer groups." I can shop above the ARC LS line, but far below their reference phonostages or newer reference preamps. I'll have to wait until their used prices come down drastically (years). So, that I can buy a used ref 3 pre for less than half of its new price is great, and I consider it a steal in the sense that most depreciation has already occurred and will be minimal for the rest of its life in my system. I can't argue with wlutke's characterization of ARC as the Robin Hood of used gear.
However, ARC degrades the meaning of the word "reference," which they use to characterize their uber-expensive gear, when they state that some new gear in the LS line surpasses the performance of older reference-line gear. In their defense, though, I'm sure the marketers know this and do it anyway because it has proven effective. I would also think their marketing decisions are based on hard data, stats, and an in-depth understanding of consumer psychology coupled with years of experience. This thread is an example of this marketing success.
My musings aside, when we compare new and old equipment, we have to change our almost total focus on engineering (as it relates to how the internal parts are put together), and spend more time thinking of the parts themselves (the SE stuff). Parts generally don't get cheaper over time, and while they too can evolve and become better, I can't imagine a company coming up with, say, a fantastic new capacitor, and then not pricing its "breakthrough" suitably; they are in business to make money, not get letters of thank you from appreciative audiophiles. And lets not forget the many other things associated with any new part that typically increase over time as well (shipping, packaging, wages, retooling machines, etc.) In my mind, this has to be discussed when comparing old and new equipment. Okay, enough of this, I'm gonna go and cue That summer feeling by Jonathan Richman.
I agree with minorl.   Besides Vovlo, Magneplanar (ARCs friends, neighbors, and sometimes collaborators) are very "slow" to upgrade or bring out new models.  Maggie also blind tests every modification and does not introduce anything until it passes those tests with some significant improvement.

I don't know if ARC uses blind testing or not, but they do a listening test on each individual unit before it leaves the factory.

I'd also modify the post above to read: "analog parts don't usually get cheaper over time"
Of the SP-2C, J. Gordon Holt wrote in Summer 1971 (Vol.3 No.1), Unquestionably the finest-sounding preamplifier we have tested to date, this [high-priced ($550) and all-tubed preamp] is the next best thing to the ideal "straight wire with gain." Sound is extremely lucid and detailed, but without a trace of the hardness or graininess that characterizes most other preamps. Control and switching facilities less versatile than on some competitively priced preamps. Phono equalization accurate to within 0.5dB.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-sp-3-preamplifier#yI3g2fujy4UfJbk4.99

If you were to compare the early model to the current version, by ARCs logic, it would sound terrible. But that is not the case according to more recent reviews.
 http://www.tonepublications.com/old-school/audio-research-sp-3-preamplifier/

That issue of Stereophile was my initiation into audiophiledom, and the ARC SP-3 my first serious pre-amp. My dearly departed pal Brooks Berdan sold ARC when he was at GNP in Pasadena, but by the time he opened his own shop (Brooks Berdan Ltd.) in nearby Monrovia, ARC designs had become hybrids, rather than purely tube. Brooks kept his tubed SP-10, finding the hybrid SP-11 somewhat "dry and white", as he put it. At that time I had an SP-6b that I bought from Steve McCormick, which I ended up selling to Brooks. Both the SP3 and SP-6, as well as the SP-10, are the classic ARC purely tube pre-amps.

Brooks became a dealer for Jadis, VTL, and Music Reference, all still making pure-tube electronics. He took in a lot of ARC from people who liked the pure tube sound of those companies products more than the hybrid sound of ARC. But Bill Johnson and Rich Larsen kept working at making their hybrid circuits sound more tubey and less solid state, and eventually got rid of the ss nasties that Brooks and some others (Harry Pearson at TAS) found objectionable. That was years ago, and ARC is still at the top of the heap. They are unquestionably the most influential high-end company of them all, but they did put out the occasional turkey! I agree with the comments above, that the way to buy ARC is used. But if you buy a power amp, you had better have a dealer who does repair work nearby. If you have an output tube go bad, you're gonna need him!

I honestly think a large percentage of the well to do audiophiles with brand loyalty do not "upgrade" their gear in search of better sound. Aside from pure curiosity, they upgrade because they want the latest models on their racks. The only semilogical explanation I got from a friend of mine who falls into this group, also an avid ARC fan, was he keeps his gear only while they are under warranty so he doesn't have to pay for any repairs. He literally trades them in for the new model. I have another friend who uses the same logic with cars. He turns them over at the end of the lease and gets the same exact model brand new. Amplifiers have hardly changed and there're no functional differences among the models over the past forty years. With a very few minor exceptions, almost all the line stage preamp also do the same thing. Some people just love that new tube smell...