Jazz for aficionados

****SE = brilliant. KOB = brilliantly ethereal.****

I like that; and I agree. "Somethin Else" was discussed early in this thread's life and in trying to find my earlier comments about it (to no avail) I came a across a thread which asked what albums resemble KOB; SE was mentioned. IMO, it is nothing like KOB except for the shared presence of Miles and Cannon who, being such distinctive voices, can give the two records a deceptive similarity.

KOB is a concept album with its emphasis on modality and "tunes" which began as mere sketches handed to the players at the studio. Only "Freddie Freeloader" is a traditional tune being a basic twelve bar blues. I have always felt that the inclusion of that tune was a deliberate "inside" message by Miles; as if to say: "This is NOT what KOB is about".

SE is another great record; but, I am not prepared to say that it is, overall, a "better" record. The tunes are mostly standards; so, from that standpoint it is comparing apples to oranges. The playing is terrific. Miles' opening four notes in "Autumn Leaves" is a thing of beauty. Same four notes every other player who has played the tune has played. But, man, there was only one Miles; the feeling is incredible. However, to my ears,and conceptual issues aside, where KOB beats SE (handily) is in the area of cohesion: KOB sounds like a band; a band that has played together a lot. There is a very high level of player intuition; they know each other's playing in a way that helps each of them interact in a way and at a level that SE doesn't quite reach. Subtle things like at the end of Miles' solo and lead-in into Trane's solo in "So What"; the way that Jimmy Cobb, with a couple of simple hits, signals "and now, Trane!". I confess that Art Blakey has never been my favorite drummer. I find his playing a little sloppy and not propelling of the soloists enough while Cobb's is lighter and at the same time more concise and forward moving. Blakey sounds like he is on automatic pilot at times; a result of not knowing, as Cobb does, where the soloist was going next. Hank Jones, one of my favorites, is too far back in the mix and is not as much of a presence as Bill Evans is on KOB; this, in spite of the fact that Evans's playing is the epitome of "ethereal" (thanks Rockadanny). I find my attention wandering when the soloists "stretch out"; and I blame the rhythm section for that, they don't supply as much "points of interest" as does the KOB rhythm section. The reason is simple: they were assembled for the session and are not a BAND.

As always, commentary has to be put in context. These are both great records and, undoubtedly, two of the greatest. The criticisms are necessarily about subtleties that would be meaningless compared to inferior recordings. For someone who doesn't think that the concept of KOB is that strong, SE probably has more to offer with it's more traditional slant. For someone who prefers the more traditional the, arguably, superior ensemble playing on KOB is probably not enough to tip the scale. As someone once said: "God (Jazz?) is in the details". (I suspect the big guy up above won't mind that comment).

Frogman, while most of the time we agree, I consider your last post as a challenge; title this, "The Musician" vs "The Aficionado".

In regard to "modality" or "no modality", KOB lacks the intense emotion of SE; maybe that's the ethereal quality of KOB. Miles music dominates this album to such an extent, that he can be heard within each solo, making the artist secondary to the music; could that be the cohesion you refer to?

Without a doubt this maybe "MIles Davis" greatest album, but when placed up against the artists Rok referred to, and their best albums, KOB begins to slide down the totem pole. Oddly enough, those who are obsessed with KOB, would not be aware of those albums; and consequently, would not be considered jazz aficionados. While KOB is "one" of the greatest, it most certainly is not "The Greatest".

In regard to SE, "The tunes are mostly standards", while three of the tunes are standards, I consider that a putdown. Hank Jones intro on "Autumn Leaves" is so dramatic, you don't know what he's going to go into, but you know you like it because it sounds so good. This is followed by incredible solos, from Miles and Cannonball; after Miles plays the melody, Hank comes back in and gets into the heart and soul of the tune with each note on his piano. "The tunes are mostly standards" sounds like such a put down that I'm left speechless.

As I sit here trying to respond to your post, I get more and more "discombobulated"; "Art Blakey", a sloppy drummer". I can only suggest you give SE another listen, I don't know why I get the feeling you're responding to this from memory, as opposed to putting the CD on and listening to each cut, and each note as I am at the moment. While all music is subjective, I'm finding it hard to believe we're so far apart, far beyond your preference to KOB over SE, which is not hard to understand.

Enjoy the music.

O-I0, I am surprised at how strongly you reacted to my comments and I think you missed some of what I was trying to say. I have previously made my comments re KOB clear: I don't consider it the greatest nor the greatest of Miles' records. Moreover, I didn't say I prefer it to SE. In a nutshell , I simply said that I find the playing on a somewhat higher level on KOB , but that "conceptually", I have problems with KOB. "Standards" a "putdown"? Huh? NOT AT ALL. In the context of my comments it's a simple fact. Those tunes are standards; that's how they are categorized and what Miles himself would have called them. If anything, my comments about the "tunes" on KOB are the putdown. And no I m not going from memory since I listen to SE pretty regularly; I think it's a great record with some great playing. The best ever? Not for me. That's all I was saying and I pointed out, per your request, what I consider to be the differences and similarities and they are subtle, but audible nonetheless.

I do think that Blakey sounds, as usual, a little lazy and sloppy. That's his style and not my cup of tea. He is obviously a great drummer. Anyway, I could go on point for point, but the important points are ( and you didn't address them directly):

Cohesion is the type and level of musical interaction that a group of musicians ( a band, orchestra, chamber group) develops by playing together a lot and is simply not possible with a "pick-up" group regardless of ability. Obviously, inferior players can play together for years and still the band will sound mediocre; obviously, that's not the case with either SE or KOB. The cohesion on KOB is exemplary. That's not to say that on SE it's bad or less than excellent; simply that it's not quite on the same exalted level. The other point that I think is getting lost is that KOB, for better or worse, is a concept album. That alone puts it in a different category; doesn't make it better or worse, but makes a comparison almost pointless. IMO, better (more meaningful) comparisons would have been: " how does KOB compare to "Milestones" for instance which are both more closely related. Really, what is the point of making a case for why one really good apple is better than a really good pear?

I encourage you to redead my comments in a different light as you will find that we really don't disagree nearly as much as it may seem at first.

BTW, this is MY favorite of all Miles' bands (Shorter, Hancock, Carter, Williams):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLB9B9936580F9EE94&v=cet79P4LN4s

O-10:

Allow me.

****Really, what is the point of making a case for why one really good apple is better than a really good pear****

how about:

(1)someone declares that the apple is the best fruit.

(2) someone declares that the pear is the best fruit.

(3) someone asks, which is the best fruit?

Of course, in this case, the statement is not even on point, because we were asked to compare two music albums. Both firmly in the Jazz genre. The comparison is valid.

I think KOB, is the end all, be all, for that certain class of "Audiophiles" with $200,000 systems and six LPs / CDs. They like it primarily because they have not heard much else.

Just one Frenchman's Opinion.

Cheers

Well, I am actually glad that you decided to not "ignore" my posts; I knew you wouldn't be able to since quality and logic are difficult to ignore :-). Now, as is often the case your analysis is mired in reactive and fairly shallow thinking which, unfortunately, misses the point. To relegate KOB to simply audiophile fodder is absurd and serves only to deny yourself a more in-depth and insightful understanding of the subtleties being discussed and presented.

To suggest that a meaningful conclusion can be drawn from asking "what the best fruit is" other than one person'a opinion is simply shallow thinking when there is so much to consider. The need to take sides and fall into one camp or another, likewise, belies shallow thinking. Please reread my posts with a more open mind; you might learn something.

Cheers.