Jazz for aficionados

Frogman, while most of the time we agree, I consider your last post as a challenge; title this, "The Musician" vs "The Aficionado".

In regard to "modality" or "no modality", KOB lacks the intense emotion of SE; maybe that's the ethereal quality of KOB. Miles music dominates this album to such an extent, that he can be heard within each solo, making the artist secondary to the music; could that be the cohesion you refer to?

Without a doubt this maybe "MIles Davis" greatest album, but when placed up against the artists Rok referred to, and their best albums, KOB begins to slide down the totem pole. Oddly enough, those who are obsessed with KOB, would not be aware of those albums; and consequently, would not be considered jazz aficionados. While KOB is "one" of the greatest, it most certainly is not "The Greatest".

In regard to SE, "The tunes are mostly standards", while three of the tunes are standards, I consider that a putdown. Hank Jones intro on "Autumn Leaves" is so dramatic, you don't know what he's going to go into, but you know you like it because it sounds so good. This is followed by incredible solos, from Miles and Cannonball; after Miles plays the melody, Hank comes back in and gets into the heart and soul of the tune with each note on his piano. "The tunes are mostly standards" sounds like such a put down that I'm left speechless.

As I sit here trying to respond to your post, I get more and more "discombobulated"; "Art Blakey", a sloppy drummer". I can only suggest you give SE another listen, I don't know why I get the feeling you're responding to this from memory, as opposed to putting the CD on and listening to each cut, and each note as I am at the moment. While all music is subjective, I'm finding it hard to believe we're so far apart, far beyond your preference to KOB over SE, which is not hard to understand.

Enjoy the music.

O-I0, I am surprised at how strongly you reacted to my comments and I think you missed some of what I was trying to say. I have previously made my comments re KOB clear: I don't consider it the greatest nor the greatest of Miles' records. Moreover, I didn't say I prefer it to SE. In a nutshell , I simply said that I find the playing on a somewhat higher level on KOB , but that "conceptually", I have problems with KOB. "Standards" a "putdown"? Huh? NOT AT ALL. In the context of my comments it's a simple fact. Those tunes are standards; that's how they are categorized and what Miles himself would have called them. If anything, my comments about the "tunes" on KOB are the putdown. And no I m not going from memory since I listen to SE pretty regularly; I think it's a great record with some great playing. The best ever? Not for me. That's all I was saying and I pointed out, per your request, what I consider to be the differences and similarities and they are subtle, but audible nonetheless.

I do think that Blakey sounds, as usual, a little lazy and sloppy. That's his style and not my cup of tea. He is obviously a great drummer. Anyway, I could go on point for point, but the important points are ( and you didn't address them directly):

Cohesion is the type and level of musical interaction that a group of musicians ( a band, orchestra, chamber group) develops by playing together a lot and is simply not possible with a "pick-up" group regardless of ability. Obviously, inferior players can play together for years and still the band will sound mediocre; obviously, that's not the case with either SE or KOB. The cohesion on KOB is exemplary. That's not to say that on SE it's bad or less than excellent; simply that it's not quite on the same exalted level. The other point that I think is getting lost is that KOB, for better or worse, is a concept album. That alone puts it in a different category; doesn't make it better or worse, but makes a comparison almost pointless. IMO, better (more meaningful) comparisons would have been: " how does KOB compare to "Milestones" for instance which are both more closely related. Really, what is the point of making a case for why one really good apple is better than a really good pear?

I encourage you to redead my comments in a different light as you will find that we really don't disagree nearly as much as it may seem at first.

BTW, this is MY favorite of all Miles' bands (Shorter, Hancock, Carter, Williams):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLB9B9936580F9EE94&v=cet79P4LN4s

O-10:

Allow me.

****Really, what is the point of making a case for why one really good apple is better than a really good pear****

how about:

(1)someone declares that the apple is the best fruit.

(2) someone declares that the pear is the best fruit.

(3) someone asks, which is the best fruit?

Of course, in this case, the statement is not even on point, because we were asked to compare two music albums. Both firmly in the Jazz genre. The comparison is valid.

I think KOB, is the end all, be all, for that certain class of "Audiophiles" with $200,000 systems and six LPs / CDs. They like it primarily because they have not heard much else.

Just one Frenchman's Opinion.

Cheers

Well, I am actually glad that you decided to not "ignore" my posts; I knew you wouldn't be able to since quality and logic are difficult to ignore :-). Now, as is often the case your analysis is mired in reactive and fairly shallow thinking which, unfortunately, misses the point. To relegate KOB to simply audiophile fodder is absurd and serves only to deny yourself a more in-depth and insightful understanding of the subtleties being discussed and presented.

To suggest that a meaningful conclusion can be drawn from asking "what the best fruit is" other than one person'a opinion is simply shallow thinking when there is so much to consider. The need to take sides and fall into one camp or another, likewise, belies shallow thinking. Please reread my posts with a more open mind; you might learn something.

Cheers.

***** To relegate KOB to simply audiophile fodder is absurd and serves only to deny yourself a more in-depth and insightful understanding of the subtleties being discussed and presented. ******

Do you do this on purpose? I did not 'relegate' KOB to anything. I offered an opinion as to why it's so popular among so-called "audiophiles". IOW, the folks on this forum. Don't put words in my mouth. I try to be very concise.