Dealers hijacking the discussions

These days, entering into discussion on the forum risks encountering all kinds of people. I mostly stay away these days, because the forum has indeed deteriorated progressively over the years. Letting dealers express their opinions is one thing. Tolerating verbal abuse from dealers and using the forum to promote dealers' products is another.

Audiogon allows verbal abuse by dealers and allows dealers to shill unabashedly. This means that it takes a lot more energy to stick with threads that often deteriorate into a morass of tangled palaver, dispute, and the expression of ideas as an excuse to promote dealer products.

geoffkait is a good example of a dealer whose omnipresence is encouraged by Audiogon -- and who is thereby encouraged to continue to be abusive and to promote his commercial agenda under the guise of alleged expertise because he knows that Audiogon will not step in. The only case I can remember when they did step in was with Audiopheil. But that was years ago. 

Anyway, since I have much better ways to spend my time, better to avoid the forum and allow the deterioration to run its course. Audiogon runs the forum the way they want -- as a business. For them, it is all about money. If allowing dealers to have their way is good for business, then so be it.

I expect this post to be disallowed by Audiogon. They often disallow truthful posts. Freedom of expression is not a priority here.

Sabai who is getting abused. Grgr4blu chimes in and attacks and attacks and attacks. 

I am not goint to allow this without rebuttal. His behavior is about revenge for feeling slighted in someway by me. It does not belong in the forums.

My perceived crime was to talk too much to him. If he was a real gentleman he could have just talked with me in an adult matter at the store and I would have willingly never talked with him again, he could have done that in a respectful matter and I would have gotten the hint. 

You can't have it both ways, a dealer is going to promote their products if they talk at all about them even if in agreement, to mention you have or are a dealer you place yourself in that position. Yet when we enter into a discussion with a Canadian or European, a US dealer gains nothing.

As per Grgr4blu's integrity 

Searching for the most "accurate" speaker (below 15K)

I’m looking for the most accurate and resolving speakers (budget is <= 15K). Paradigm Persona 3F, Kef Reference 3 or Focal Sopra 2 are some of the options I can think of. Any opinions on how these compare? Should I had other options to this shortlist? The amplifier is the (absolutely extraordinary) Nagra Classic AMP.

 

Gee Vermeer is directly mentioning Personas and Kefs which are two brands we sell, seeking information and opinions on them, who better to address this then a dealer who actually sell both brands, and I knew full well he is in Portugal so it is IMPOSSIBLE to sell him anything. 

So it seems you don't follow your own rules now doesn't it?

"Note that I never attack Audiotroy unless he comes into a thread having nothing to do with his products under the guise of educating the OP when in fact he is selling his wares. "

As part of our continuous and never ending fights on that thread:

Audiotroy:
I need not prove my hearing capabilities to you. Nor are you entitled to waste my time proving anything to you, a naked Persona shill here on Audiogon. Are you paid an extra commission to sell them? I'm not entitled to that answer so don't bother.

That does not address any of the issues on the thread it is directly an attack.

As per the concept of shilling:

Grgr4blu you seem to talk about how great your system is are you therfore a shill? 

Is Ctstooner also a shill for Vandersteen? He seems to mention them a lot.

I am willing to bet by your definition almost anyone who is passionatly endorsing or recommending any brand is a shill

audiotroy,

Please note that I was referring to commercial shills. I am not in the audio business and I do not have any affiliation with any audio company. I do not have a commercial agenda.

The solution to all of this is simple NO One should be attacking anyone on these forums.

If you perceive that someone’s advice a poster, a moderator a dealer, or anyone on these forums is not to your tastes, or for some personal gain, just be a grown up and don’t read that persons post, just pretend it isn’t there.

It is like the people who believe that censorship is the answer to seeing something on TV you find objectionable, most people in the US feel that the constituion guarantees us the right to free speech therefore the common thing that people have resorted to is the comment not to watch or turn the channel.

Please lets all grow up a bit and respect each others rights to post, and right to have an opinion and maybe you will find out when you hear X Y or Z at some show and go wow that product sounds great, or a product that you own and have heard sound aweful at a show, which sounds fantastic to you in your system that setup is everything and we all have tastes.

Some people love black coffee while others drink coffee which is half milk and 4 spoonfuls of sugar, which is right? It comes down to personal taste and bias while others say I hate coffee, and that same person has never tasted a really good high end cup and viola now likes coffee.

We test a lot of products, if you actually call us and speak to myself or Troy you can see for yourself and you are free to visit my store and listen to any of our systems and see for yourself if we make good sound or not.

No problem as long as the dealer discloses who they are.
 What I find extremely unprofessional is when a manufacturer posts about their products and makes subjective comments of any kind. Especially when  in a comparitive nature to other competitive products!    I believe only factual and technical information should be given by any manufacturer.