Dealers hijacking the discussions

Audiotroy:
You can’t help yourself from lying. The fact that I mentioned in this thread (about you hijacking threads) that I refuse to hijack a current active thread re Personas to get back at you because I am not like you---does not mean I have hijacked a thread. Never have--never will. You will note that I do not appear on the Persona thread because I do not wish to stoop to your level. Besides, I unlike you, have nothing to sell.
Ethiessen1-
You are correct. I could cool it a little and I will. I would be bored to tears reading our exchanges. But it’s not animosity on my part. Note that I never attack Audiotroy unless he comes into a thread having nothing to do with his products under the guise of educating the OP when in fact he is selling his wares. So, as a service to the other members of that thread who do not know his m.o. and who may actually think he is providing valuable unbiased information, I place his never ending promotions in context. He then produces a thousand words to defend himself--usually attacking me with lies--like above--and on it goes.-It’s the way Audiotroy does it that gets to me because it was done to me in person and others I know when he worked at Sound By Singer and at shows since then --by holding himself out as THE expert and his products as THE best for the money while denigrating other dealers and extolling his own integrity. BTW, I liked all other salespeople at Sound By Singer and have never had a problem with any other salesperson at any other dealership in all of my years.
But I hear you Ethiessen1--and will keep my attacks shorter and sweeter in the future. And, AS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, I will not deal with Audiotroy’s bad conduct unless he invades a thread I am engaged in which has nothing to do with his products to sell them. As I’ve said before but Audiotroy never hears--no hijacking in the Audiotroy style mentioned above=silence from me.

Gpgr4blu,

You may have issues, with me, however, many people are having them with you as well.

As per knowledge you take offense that someone who is younger than you might know more, which might have been your percevied slight and what you felt was wrong with working with me in the first place when you encountered me at SBS.

 I can assure you when I was in my 20's I most probably had a better system than you in your 40s, not trying to be bragadocious, just trying to make a point. about your comments about not liking someone guide you and again I started young in the hobby. 

I can guarantee if I was one of your "buddies" it would not be the case, as you would therefore grant me the respect that you would engender for one of your peers, and the guidance would be considered accepted council.

 I am sure you didn't feel hostile to Andy or any of the other dealers. I know for a fact that many people liked Andy's approach and you can bet he was making recommendations to people the same way that I do. 

As per selling my wares most of the posts about Paradigm has not resulted in any sales as there are territorial issues in the States and Vermeer is in Europe, another gentleman in Canada.

So if we come across as a shill for Paradigm you come accross as a shill for Wilson as you are always mentioning them or chiming in are you on ther payroll? Ctstooner is in love with Vandersteen so is he also on Vandersteen's payroll? If you get my drift most audiophiles are high on their brand because they feel they are the best they have heard. 

I also said in one of my earlier posts that I don't think the Paradigms are the best speakers on Earth I stated they are a great value for what they do. 

Notice I never said to someone looking at Harbeths to look at Paradigms? Why becaue Harbeths are musical ie colored while Paradigm Personas are not, here I would talk about ATC why because ATC is a rival to Harbeth and they are also musical although to my ears much less colored. 

So if I am a shill why do I talk about so many different products, why do I talk about my products, duh I have selected them because to my ear they are better or I wouldn't endorse them.

I will state my point one last time, this is a forum and which is supposed to act as a way for people to exhange ideas.

If no one ever chimes in with why don't you listen to X no one will ever learn about new products and new companies, sometimes to the detriment of others who might actually want to find out about products they are not considering. 

In your case the only thing anyone will learn from you is that you don't like me and nothing about audio as your postings are mostly in agreement without ever questioning if brand x is right for the poster like on the Proac vs Wilson thread.

These days, entering into discussion on the forum risks encountering all kinds of people. I mostly stay away these days, because the forum has indeed deteriorated progressively over the years. Letting dealers express their opinions is one thing. Tolerating verbal abuse from dealers and using the forum to promote dealers' products is another.

Audiogon allows verbal abuse by dealers and allows dealers to shill unabashedly. This means that it takes a lot more energy to stick with threads that often deteriorate into a morass of tangled palaver, dispute, and the expression of ideas as an excuse to promote dealer products.

geoffkait is a good example of a dealer whose omnipresence is encouraged by Audiogon -- and who is thereby encouraged to continue to be abusive and to promote his commercial agenda under the guise of alleged expertise because he knows that Audiogon will not step in. The only case I can remember when they did step in was with Audiopheil. But that was years ago. 

Anyway, since I have much better ways to spend my time, better to avoid the forum and allow the deterioration to run its course. Audiogon runs the forum the way they want -- as a business. For them, it is all about money. If allowing dealers to have their way is good for business, then so be it.

I expect this post to be disallowed by Audiogon. They often disallow truthful posts. Freedom of expression is not a priority here.

Sabai who is getting abused. Grgr4blu chimes in and attacks and attacks and attacks. 

I am not goint to allow this without rebuttal. His behavior is about revenge for feeling slighted in someway by me. It does not belong in the forums.

My perceived crime was to talk too much to him. If he was a real gentleman he could have just talked with me in an adult matter at the store and I would have willingly never talked with him again, he could have done that in a respectful matter and I would have gotten the hint. 

You can't have it both ways, a dealer is going to promote their products if they talk at all about them even if in agreement, to mention you have or are a dealer you place yourself in that position. Yet when we enter into a discussion with a Canadian or European, a US dealer gains nothing.

As per Grgr4blu's integrity 

Searching for the most "accurate" speaker (below 15K)

I’m looking for the most accurate and resolving speakers (budget is <= 15K). Paradigm Persona 3F, Kef Reference 3 or Focal Sopra 2 are some of the options I can think of. Any opinions on how these compare? Should I had other options to this shortlist? The amplifier is the (absolutely extraordinary) Nagra Classic AMP.

 

Gee Vermeer is directly mentioning Personas and Kefs which are two brands we sell, seeking information and opinions on them, who better to address this then a dealer who actually sell both brands, and I knew full well he is in Portugal so it is IMPOSSIBLE to sell him anything. 

So it seems you don't follow your own rules now doesn't it?

"Note that I never attack Audiotroy unless he comes into a thread having nothing to do with his products under the guise of educating the OP when in fact he is selling his wares. "

As part of our continuous and never ending fights on that thread:

Audiotroy:
I need not prove my hearing capabilities to you. Nor are you entitled to waste my time proving anything to you, a naked Persona shill here on Audiogon. Are you paid an extra commission to sell them? I'm not entitled to that answer so don't bother.

That does not address any of the issues on the thread it is directly an attack.

As per the concept of shilling:

Grgr4blu you seem to talk about how great your system is are you therfore a shill? 

Is Ctstooner also a shill for Vandersteen? He seems to mention them a lot.

I am willing to bet by your definition almost anyone who is passionatly endorsing or recommending any brand is a shill

audiotroy,

Please note that I was referring to commercial shills. I am not in the audio business and I do not have any affiliation with any audio company. I do not have a commercial agenda.