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Is a SUT needed?

I have a Dynavector DRT XV 1s going into an Aesthetix Rhea Signature. The sound is great, but I do have to increase the volume due to the low output of the cart, which can produce a high noise floor, when listening to quieter passages.  Do you think a Dynavector SUT 200 would be a good match?  Any suggestions?
handymann
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rauliruegas
9,123 posts
 
Dear @bobsdevices : You know for sure about and not only that but your knowledge levels is superior to mine and I truly mean it.

Problem is that you have is a must to stay " biassed " on that regards. It's fine with me and I'm not against SUTs per sé because can " sounds " really really good but if we compare the SUT you want  ( vintage or today units. ) against a well designed SS ( bipolar devices. ) active high gain phono stage this one beats the SUT.

Now, I'm not talking of what I, you or other gentlemans like it more because this fact is absolutely subjective and has nothing to " see " with the way lower overall distortions ( everykind ) performance coming from the active unit.
You already know this. There is no single way that any one of us can stay truer to the recordings using any SUT, it's just imposible to have against that well designed active unit. You know this Bob ! ! 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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rauliruegas
9,123 posts
 
Dear @whatthe : You own any one " dream system " desire.

I know very well those 3 units you named: for its price Vitus is infamous/terrible and the Walker is not at very top .

Anyway, other that the Ypsilon is a tube unit. Problem is that additionaly we need and external SUT and additional an external line stage.

Those means that the sensitive and critical very low output signal of any LOMC cartridge stays " suffering " high degradation levels at each single link where it must pass before we can listen it through those Magico speakers.

First link to that cartridge signal is the tubes and transformers in the phono stage that destroy that signal. From here the signal must pass through the Ypsilon output connectors to the IC cables and cable additional connectors and after around 0.5m-1.0m of cable where the signal travels takes the out IC cables connectors to the SUT input connectors where inside the signal travels for many meters of transformer wire and then goes through the SUT output connectors to the input IC cables connectors and other 0.5-1.0m of additional IC cable and from here to the input connectors and electronics in the line stage.

I know for sure that you love it and this is not under any kind of questioning in no way. What you or any one of us like it is each one of us privilege and no one can argue against it. Period.

When we have a good designed SS active high gain PhonoLinepreamp ( integrated one. ) the recorded LP MUSIC information that the cartridge stylus tip pick-up has a way different " treatment " where the degradation levels is way way lower than in the case I exposed here.

The integrity of the cartridge signal is way better conservated through that SS unit.

Which one like it us more?, it does not matters because what I’m saying here and else where on this same regards is that the cartridge signal degradation levels ( that we can’t restore in any way but only follow the degradations. ) is in one side far away from the recording and the other truer to the recording.

If at each single link in home audio system chain we take care on degradation levels and how to avoid it ( well we can’t but at least put at minimum. ) what we can listen and really listen has no paragon/ quintessence on what we already listen in what ever system no matter what.
We always achieve the best of the best quality coming from the speakers ever.

So, when we are trying to put at minimum the distortion levels at each system’s link we don’t have to worried if what we will achieve will like us because always we like it. Period.

Btw, money is always important but more important is to know how to achieve that gorgeous unique level and what to do.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
bobsdevices
68 posts
 
This is going to be rather long, but I will try to explain the difference between using an external MC step-up transformer into a MM phono stage, and using a self-contained phono preamp that does it all.


Disclaimer:   I manufacture Step up transformers. I started doing it as a hobbyist trying to improve the sound of my system. Over time, many improvements have been made.

Background: Matching Moving coil Cartridges to phono stages is a difficult process. For MM cartridges it is relatively easy since there is a standard for MM cartridges at 5mV and 47k Ohms. With MC cartridges, there is a wide spectrum of output voltages and internal impedances, as well as a variety of inductances. For a Phono stage manufacturer, it is a nightmare.

Basically, almost all MC phono stages have a MM mode. The designer in most cases, builds a second stage to convert the signal from a MC cartridge to the MM level. Most do this with an active stage designed and built with FETs. Some use internal step up transformers. The challenge is accommodating a wide variety of MC cartridges. This is typically accomplished using a bunch of switches or jumpers on a circuit board. Many have adjustments for impedance and output voltage (different gain settings). If you look at the specs of each phono stages and compare them for MC cartridges vs. MM cartridges, there is usually a significant different in signal to noise ratio. The ratio is lower by about 8-10dB for MC cartridges vs. MM cartridges. This results in a louder background noise floor for MC cartridges. Additionally, adding switches to low output signals is very difficult without degrading sound.

For those phono stages that use internal step up transformers, there is a limited range for MC cartridges and typically, the internal step up transformers are not as good as some of the best in the industry. One step up transformer cannot be made to work properly with most MC cartridges.

A stand-alone step up transformer can be used to better match a cartridge to a MM phono stage, instead of using the internal active stage or the internal step up transformers. You can use a step up transformer ranging from 1:5 to 1:40. For those who say that using a stand-alone Step up transformer is not a good idea because it adds an additional set of interconnects; well, the active stage or internal step up transformers are connected by wires or printed circuits inside the phono preamp. Perhaps you would also say that a console stereo is better than separates since no interconnects are required. There are lots of excellent interconnects that are as good, if not better, than the internal wiring.






lewm
6,770 posts
 
Good points.  I would only take issue with the implication that using ICs between an outboard SUT and a suitable MM stage is no different, in terms only of the potential effect of the connecting wires, than having a built-in SUT or a voltage gain stage before the MM circuit.  The external SUT not only requires much longer wires, making it susceptible to RFI and/or the effects of wire capacitance, but it also requires connectors, usually RCA type, at both ends of the ICs. Connectors are a major source of coloration, in my opinion, where low level phono signals are concerned.  This is a point in favor of built-in SUTs, if one must use a SUT.
nandric's avatar
nandric
3,263 posts
 

The Dutch are collective convinced that the Germans have

no sense for humor. However I deed find some ''contrary''

evidence. I don't mean their ''Wein, Weiber und Gesang'' 

(drinks,women and music) but propositions like: ''the thoughts

are tax free'' and more in particular: ''If theory and practice

coincide then probably both are false''.

I am not sure about SUT's theory or the theories about SUT's

but  my experience is in ''correspondence'' (aka ''correspondence 

 theory of truth'') with @bobsdevices , say, assumptions.

Anyway for outputs bellow 0,2 mV. Both my phono-pres (Basis

Exclusive and Klyne 3,5) have 4 amplification stages. But in

the user manual the lowest possible is recommended for

the given cart because higher amplifications mean higher

distortions.

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