Jazz for aficionados
*****What we hear is determined by the same factors as what the musician plays musically. The musicians origination is one of the greatest factors in what he plays. What he is actually playing, and what he thinks he's playing might be two different things***** Never thought about it that way. You could be on to something. I guess Mose Allison does think he is playing Jazz and Blues. From his point of view, he is. Great point OP. Cheers |
Miles said he did not want his music to be called jazz PRECISELY because of what we have seen here recently and on and off for about five years now. The insistence on the part of some to limit the definition to what he or she has decided it should be and nothing else. Sound familiar? And this, as if they were truly qualified to be so opinionated and limiting, not to mention dismissive and insulting of other’s opinions; especially when those opinions are held by listeners who are clearly experienced and astute. Talk about “bogus”! Miles felt that attaching the “jazz” label to it was far too limiting and went counter to the true spirit of jazz: improvisatory creativity and boundless search for new ways of expression. The very meaning which ironically seems to elude some. Worse still is when so many misconceptions and distortions, not to mention contradictions, are bandied about as if they were truth with not one iota of humility and deference to the simple fact that compared to some of the musical geniuses that we discuss here we have a great deal to learn. **** just that it is no longer Jazz. Post-Bitches Brew I assume. **** Wrong. He said it well before he started playing the kind of jazz that some would insist is not jazz at all. **** The public decides who and what is great and good, and what is not great and good. **** One of the recurring and mistaken “gems”. Kenny G anyone? Informed, thoughtful and open-minded listeners determine what is good (for themselves). **** Why is it that Jazz is the only genre that MUST evolve? People still love Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc....... no matter how much noise the Stravinsky types make. No one is throwing their Classical CDs in the trash because the music is old. Why should I dump Ellington. **** The height of absurdity (sorry, but the “bogus” comment opened that door for me). All genres evolve and do. To feel that Stravinsky is noise speaks volumes. Now we get to the good stuff as concerns this thread. Just who is saying “dump Ellington”? I have always found it very telling that those who see validity in quality new jazz are never dismissive of quality old jazz and do nothing but appreciate it as well; there is room for both. Moreover, they are often also the most informed and astute re old jazz. **** they crave recognition of their talents and their efforts from the public. **** Hate to break it to you, but what artists crave the most is recognition from fellow artists; they are each other’s toughest critics. **** Change does not mean better. It’s just different. **** Who said anything about “better”? Problem is the narrow-minded insist that change necessarily means worse. It does not. Ok, this one takes the cake. So, Mose Allison, jazz pianist, composer, singer and recording artist only THINKS that he is playing jazz. But, you know better, he really isn’t. Not that it is a kind of jazz that you don’t particularly like; it isn’t jazz at all. Poor guy doesn’t have a clue as to what he’s doing. Got it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LEZSSH6BLDo |
*****Talk about “bogus”! Miles felt that attaching the “jazz” label to it was far too limiting and went counter to the true spirit of jazz: improvisatory creativity and boundless search for new ways of expression. The very meaning which ironically seems to elude some.***** Lets see: He thought calling it JAZZ was too limiting because the true spirit of JAZZ is improvisatory creativity and boundless search for new ways of expression. I guess that statement makes sense to you and your ’followers’. Btw, I didn’t say his music was not Jazz, Miles didn’t think it was Jazz, and Wynton said it wasn’t. That’s good enough for me. I guess your learned opinion trumps the opinion of Wynton Marsalis. *****One of the recurring and mistaken “gems”. Kenny G anyone? Informed, thoughtful and open-minded listeners determine what is good (for themselves). ***** Well, ’listeners’ may determine what is good for them, BUT listeners don’t make a living playing music. Musicians do. And successful musicians know who and what ultimately signs their checks. The rest hang around barber shops talking what coulda, shoulda, woulda. *****Hate to break it to you, but what artists crave the most is recognition from fellow artists; they are each other’s toughest critics.***** Does not even pass the common sense test. Just something you said to Refute my point. You can’t eat or pay your rent off of peer group acclaim. *****Ok, this one takes the cake. So, Mose Allison, jazz pianist, composer, singer and recording artist only THINKS that he is playing jazz. But, you know better, he really isn’t. Not that it is a kind of jazz that you don’t particularly like; it isn’t jazz at all. Poor guy doesn’t have a clue as to what he’s doing. Got it.***** Absolutely. He thinks he is playing The Blues. Just like the middle class boys from London and Liverpool, and their fans. They think it’s the blues. Probably passes muster at Julliard. But not at the Rum Boogie. And trust me, they know. Yes, I do know better. You think I was born yesterday? I think I know the blues when I hear it. Poor guy had a clue he was making money, mostly outside the South, other than that, he is clueless. I wonder if he ever played in any juke joints in Mississippi? And I’m glad to hear you have finally got something. I was beginning to wonder. I asked a few questions in my previous post, concerning new ’Jazz’ and the players thereof.. I see you were selective in ignoring them. hmmmmmmmmmm. Makes a body wonder. Cheers Btw, my career choice had no room for all this humility stuff. That’s where we agree that everyone will be right an equal number of times. |
**** Btw, I didn’t say his music was not Jazz **** You’ve been saying it is not jazz since you started posting here. Pleas don’t make me have to go to the “archives” to prove you wrong again. **** Does not even pass the common sense test. Just something you said to Refute my point. You can’t eat or pay your rent off of peer group acclaim **** I never say anything just to refute a point. Go spend a few decades around musicians of all persuasions and then get back to me. You have no idea of what you speak. **** I asked a few questions in my previous post, concerning new ’Jazz’ and the players thereof.. I see you were selective in ignoring them. hmmmmmmmmmm. Makes a body wonder. **** Perhaps you mean these: **** 5. What year was the last Jazz Standard written? 6. These modern guys spend a lot of time playing, or trying to play, Trane, Parker et al. I wonder why? **** Be careful what you wish for. I was merely trying to spare you any further embarrassment since the answers are so obvious and I found it hard to believe that you would have to ask. Just a few modern jazz standards that come to mind: Birdland Maiden Voyage Wave Forest Flower Chameleon Spain A Child Is Born Watermelon Man Footprints Most written in the late 70’s- early 80’s. Of course, and the key point, I have no doubt that you understand that just as it took decades for the songs that would eventually be considered “standards” to be considered as such, it will also take worthy newer compositions a comparable length of time. And, I’m also certain that you understand that most “jazz standards” were not written as jazz tunes at all, but were written for Broadway and other popular genres. Re the players: It is no surprise that you would not be able to hear that what good post -Coltrane players are doing is an extension of Trane without sounding LIKE Trane. Others still sound nothing like Trane (Lovano). Cannonball, Phil Woods, Charles McPherson and others were an extension of Bird, so should we ask why they were trying so hard to sound like Bird? Besides, I don’t think anyone who by his own admission has never liked Bird’s playing much is qualified to ask the question. As always this nonsense gets very tiresome. Just what is it that you gain by denigrating others’ viewpoints which, if anything, are inclusive of others’ tastes? **** That’s where we agree that everyone will be right an equal number of times. **** Interesting. |
*****Most written in the late 70’s- early 80’s. Enter your text******* That's coming up on 50 years!!!! That's what you call modern? *****And, I’m also certain that you understand that most “jazz standards” were not written as jazz tunes at all, but were written for Broadway and other popular genres. ***** I know that, but I was speaking of standards created by Jazz players / composers. And you knew that. Stalling!! Your list seems kind of old to me. *****As always this nonsense gets very tiresome. Just what is it that you gain by denigrating others’ viewpoints which, if anything, are inclusive of others’ tastes? ***** I am not denigrating anyone or anything. Just stating my point of view, along with a few facts. Having done so, I think I will take a sabbatical along with the OP. As someone said recently, my kind of music is no longer discussed here. But they did offer to give me links to places where it is discussed. I sure do thank you all. Cheers |
