Autoformer vs Speaker impedance Curve


Autoformers vs speakers with wild impedance curve swings (for instance; MC601 amp paired with B&W 802D3 speakers).

There’s a wealth of information about tube amp audio transformers interaction with speaker impedance, but I can’t find anything regarding Autoformer and speaker impedance/phase curve relationships. 

Can any techies enlighten me? 

Thanks!

(I tacked a similar post onto the end of a 10 year old thread but thought I might get a few more hits with a new thread.  Sorry for the redundancy)



73max
What isn’t addressed is, what happens “electrically and sonically” with Autoformers when 8 ohm speakers, like 802D3s, dip down to 3 ohms or exceed 20 ohms???

With typical output transformers (common with tube amps) speakers with wild impedance swings (and phase) present a challenging load to the amp and fidelity can suffer.

Can the same be said of autoformers? Or, are these electrically different enough from transformers as to not present the same issues?
With either an autoformer or output transformer the operation is similar, so we don’t have to separate them.

Transformers **transform** impedance. To do this, it goes both ways- if a lower impedance as you suggest above is on the 8 ohm tap, a lower impedance is thus also seen by the output devices.


This is exactly the same as if there were no output transformer at all- think about it- if an amp has no output transformer, it too will see a varying load.

How the designer set up the amplifier with the transformer plays a big role. The reason you do this BTW is to reduce distortion- all amps have higher distortion playing lower impedances, so if you can raise the overall impedance seen by the output devices distortion will be reduced. This is why Mac uses autoformers.

Now there is the issue of the varying load, and a lot depends on what the designer of that load expects. You might want to read the article at this link:
http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

ESLs have an impedance curve that typically varies by about 10:1 over their range. Yet it works better for them if the amp can make constant power rather than constant voltage. A lot of box speakers don’t behave this way- for them, constant voltage over the range is more important, this in order to control the normal resonance and resulting impedance peak usually in the bass region near the speaker’s cutoff. To accomplish the latter, enough loop negative feedback applied will cause any amplifier, tube or solid state, output transformer or not, to behave as a voltage source and the resulting output will be constant voltage. This is why this comment:
Large impedance swings and severe phase angles do exactly what you’d expect; they produce dips and humps in response. McIntosh is about the only solid state manufacturer to use output coupling transformers. If you’re driving benign, modestly reactive loads, all is peachy. But you throw some significantly reactive speakers at it, not so much.

- is only partially true- if the amp is acting a voltage source, the above statement is false. Specifically in the case of MacIntosh, the statement is false; Mac led the way in the late 1950s towards developing the idea that speakers be ’voltage driven’ (IOW act like a voltage source) and I don’t think they’ve backed away from that, since most of the industry has followed their lead.

With typical output transformers (common with tube amps) speakers with wild impedance swings (and phase) present a challenging load to the amp and fidelity can suffer.

A major factor contributing to this, and what is probably the most major factor in many cases, is not the output transformer itself, but the interaction of the output impedance of a tube amp with the speaker impedance variations that you are referring to. In contrast to nearly all solid state amps, most tube amps have output impedances that are a significant fraction of speaker impedance, usually somewhere between a large fraction of an ohm and several ohms. That in turn causes the voltage divider effect to have significant effects on tonality, to the extent that the speaker’s impedance varies as a function of frequency.

In the case of McIntosh solid state amps which use autoformers that particular effect is essentially negligible with most speakers, because as a consequence of being solid state their output impedance is much smaller than the output impedance of most tube amps. (Although that certainly does not mean that an amplifier having low output impedance is necessarily the best match for a given speaker, in terms of tonality). For example the MC302 has a specified damping factor of "greater than 40," which for the 8 ohm tap theoretically corresponds to an output impedance of less than 8/40 = 0.2 ohms.

Can the same be said of autoformers? Or, are these electrically different enough from transformers as to not present the same issues?

While as I’ve said the effects you appear to be asking about are usually not due to output transformers themselves, autoformers do have significant advantages relative to output transformers in typical applications. One is that autoformers don’t have to be designed to handle significant amounts of DC, while the output transformers in tube amps must be able to do that. Another is that in typical applications an autoformer just has to provide a small transformation ratio between input and output voltage, current, and impedance, while the output transformer of a tube amp usually has to provide a much larger ratio. Those differences mean that a well designed autoformer will tend to have fewer sonic side-effects than a comparably well designed output transformer.

Regards,
-- Al
Thanks all!

Some questions to clarify all of your thoughts and input are “gelling”. I need to digest this further. 

Very interesting read atmasphere. I had briefly read it once before, but it was much more clear the second time through.

More to follow. 


73max OP
Autoformer vs Speaker impedance Curve


Just don’t get sucked into the McIntosh propaganda, or others hype here.

They (autoformers) allow an amp to work with a speaker that it normally wouldn’t be a good match for.
Better to rather spend the money and get the RIGHT AMP instead of putting a "soft comfort cushion" (autoformer) between the amp and speaker.

Your B&W 802D3 deserve better than this, get the right amp for them.

https://www.stereophile.com/images/616BW802fig1.jpg
" B&W 802D3 The magnitude drops to 3 ohms between 100 and 130Hz, and again between 670 and 770Hz; and while the electrical phase angle is low in the lower region, it becomes increasingly inductive above 600Hz, reaching +46° at 1kHz, where the magnitude is 4 ohms. There is also a combination of 4 ohms and –64° at 69Hz, implying that this speaker does require an amplifier that is not upset by a low effective impedance."

This statement "There is also a combination of 4 ohms and –64° at 69Hz" means the amp could see an EPDR load of down to 2ohms!!!!!!! And it stays at 3ohms for the rest of the bass and upper bass!!!


Cheers George
@73max

Your B&W 802 D3 will be better off driven by a pair of Classe Delta CAM-300 monoblock amps or the CAM-600 monoblock amps. I’ve heard these B&W 802 D3 paired with the Classe Delta CAM-300 & CAM-600 monoblock amps before as well as the Mac MC601 monoblock amps in the same setup and same listening room environment.
They sounded best driven by either the Classe Delta CAM-300 or CAM-600 monoblock amps. These Classe Delta series amps have been discontinued last year and can be had at discounted prices if you can find a used pairs.
The Classe CAM-600 originally retail for the same price as the Mac MC601 ($14k/pair) and the CAM-300 originally retail for $11k/pair). 

These B&W 800 series D3 speakers pair really well with Classe Delta series amplifiers. They sounded great together.
I’m currently using the Classe Delta CAM-600 monoblock amps to drive my B&W 800 D3 front speakers in my dedicated home theater room. They sounded spectacular together.
I’m also using the Classe CAM-300 monoblock amp (single) to power the matching B&W HTML1 D3 center channel speaker. Classe and B&W have great synergy together.