Classical Music for Aficionados

Just a word about Wagner.  His adoption of the Baroque is quite different from Brahms’.  Brahms is more typical of the “fire and fury” of the late Italian Baroque influence on Bach. Wagner’s Baroque leanings are from an earlier period, a lot different in character.

I can not imagine any artist whose art is worth six million lives period !I think artists that can pass it by today are as morally deficient as the vast majority of same who kowtowed to Hitler .More so really in that their lives are not in danger .

Yes, good comments, rvpiano. Both were heavily  influenced by the baroque. Brahms was actually even more influenced by Handel than by Bach.  The influence of Bach on Wagner is well documented, too.

schubert, are you actually trying to say that  you feel Wagner is responsible for the Holocaust?  Even granting that some of his writings (not his musical compositions) influenced Hitler and the Nazis, which as you say many historians do recognize, I think it is a huge stretch to call Wagner responsible for their actions over 50 years after his death. Don't you think they would have believed and done the same regardless of whether Wagner had ever existed? I have certainly never seen any historian suggest otherwise, and I have read and researched Wagner extensively, writing many papers on his music while in school. 

Appreciating the art of Wagner's music is no crime, listening to it is no crime, and performing it is no crime; and being someone who lost many relatives in the Holocaust, I frankly find your suggestion that I am somehow morally deficient VERY offensive.  Parenthetically, I am also surprised the moderators of this forum allowed the post to stand, as they seem to quickly take down posts with much less heinous personal attacks. 

Of course, Wagner's anti-Semetic writings are to be condemned, and no artist would argue otherwise.  But how is the MUSIC itself made any less great, because we disagree with/condemn much of the composer's thought or actions on an unrelated subject, or because someone else tried to appropriate the music for a despicable purpose?  While I fully understand why a survivor of the camps, for instance, might never want to hear the music of Wagner ever again, the music was NOT written for that purpose, and it is a shame to me that some essentially allow the Nazis to appropriate it, as no matter how much we condemn the man who wrote it, it remains some of the greatest music ever composed, and it is not the fault of that music that the Nazis tried to appropriate it. I argue that we should not let them, and that this is a moral choice as well as an artistic one. Condemn the man, not the art.

If we do start condemning art, where exactly does that end?  Where does one draw that line? Do you not listen to Gesualdo, for instance? He murdered his wife and her lover. Tchaikovsky was a known pedophile. Do you not listen to him? Bruckner was probably a necrophiliac. Does this make his symphonies less great? You yourself brought up the misogyny and sexism of Brahms. Are we to throw out the music of all these great artists? 

Learsfool, +1. "I'm not an anti-semite, some of my best friends are Jews." A more common apologist's self serving statement perhaps, but it must be hard to love Germany and its occupants and not say something.

 I recently watched a program involving Daniels Barenboim's efforts in trying to find accord between Palestinians and Israels through the use of music involving artists with stereotypical political beliefs.  A dissonant  Jew, I think not. And FWIW Wagner is now performed in Israel. Go figure!

But, FWIW, the use of critical analysis is not a prerequisite to forming or expressing a personal opinion, whether we like it or not.

Learsfool,

In my research I found the overwhelming evidence and opinion is that Bach, NOT Handel was the main Baroque influence.
It was said that when a new edition of the Bach Gesselschaft (just being compiled at the time) came to him, he would eagerly pour over it.  But when a new Handel tome came he said he would “get to it later.”
In concerts, Brahms as choral conductor profusely included Bach in programs.
Handel was scarcely to be found.
The so called “fire and fury,” (mentioned by Baroque writers)  of the Vivaldi-Bach concerto style is to be found often in Brahms style. Not so, the more sedate Corelli-Handel concerto grosso style.
As mentioned, Brahms would improvise on the piano and organ for hours in the manner of Bach organ writing.
Indeed his final opus contained chorale preludes in homage to Bach.

I can see where a cursory opinion might be formed regarding Handel.
After all, he did write “Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel.”
But the consensus among scholars is that Bach is the man.