Jazz for aficionados

West/East:

Sorry guys, but you’re conflating several issues and painting with way too broad a brush.

First, while I’m glad that you thought my descriptions were complete, O-10, I don’t agree with your comment that East Coast jazz, because it often (not always) has more of an emphasis on improvisation than West Coast jazz, is more emotional. This relates to the recent question re “soul” and which music or which player has more soul than another. One simply can’t make generalizations about this. I can easily give examples of musicians playing music that is written down who play it with much more emotion and “soul” than many examples of improvised music which can come across as emotionally dry and even mechanical. That kind of generalization simply doesn’t work and doesn’t answer anything about the question of the differences between the two styles of playing. To say that East Coast jazz is “more real” is doing West Coast players a disservice and is simply not true. We are talking about two different STYLES of playing. Yes, East Coast jazz is GENERALLY harder edged and less cool. Does that make it “more real” or more emotional? I don’t think so. Different, yes. I think acman3’s post and question go a long way toward shedding some light on this:

**** I wonder if music is like language, in that while going up in Texas, and working on farms and ranches as a teen, then working in Dallas for 40 years and losing my twang, for the most part, when I hang out with my East Texas friends, I actually hear my twang come out more pronounced.

Do musicians develop a sound like the people they play with? ****

First, the answer to the question is, definitely. The broader point goes to the important fact that the parallels between music playing and basic human experience are many. Think of it this way:

Think about that cousin that we all know who always seems to be on an “emotional” roller coaster; who is loud at parties and wears loud attire. Then there is that other cousin who is quiet, perhaps even shy, and wears sensible shoes. We then get to really know and understand each of them only to find out that the loud one is always late, is unreliable, cheats on his wife and just declared bankruptcy. The quiet one would never tell you this, but he is the one who donates his time at church, takes his kids to soccer practice (in his sensible shoes), chooses to keep his problems to himself and is a great listener when you really need him to listen. Is the loud and extravagant cousin “more real”? Does he have more “soul”?  Not in my book. Are people on the East Coast more “real” than people on the West Coast?

O-10’s Nica’s Dream comparison:

First of all, I don’t think that those recordings are a good example or indicative of the differences in the styles, There is no more improvisation in the Horace Silver version than in the Curtis Counce; so, there goes the notion that because there is more improvisation (there isn’t) it is more “real” or more emotional. Then there is what Rok describes as “more in your face, more of an edge.” The main reason for the difference and why it made that impression is simple (you want “nuts and bolts”?): Horace Silver’s version is faster. They play the tune at a faster tempo; much faster. Just because the music is played in the West Coast doesn’t necessarily mean that it is played in what is typically considered “the West Coast style”. There was and is a lot of “crossing over” in the styles of playing which is why those generalities just don’t work. The recently discussed music of Dave Brubeck or Gerry Mulligan are much better examples of what can be considered classic West Coast jazz. Generally much more compositionally intricate and a generally more laid back attitude.

**** The mismatch in talent could have been the difference. I would not have been able to say one was East Coast vs West Coast.****

The difference was the tempo and the reason you wouldn’t be able to tel that one was West and the other East was that there was very little difference other than the tempo.

Another generality that doesn’t hold up is the recurring idea that because some musicians couldn’t read music their playing was somehow “more real” than that of those who could. Simply not true. Art Pepper, as good an example of a West Coast alto player as there is was a terrible reader. Conversely, there were many East Coast hard bop players who were great readers.

####

Hollywood, Movie themes, CA life style, (they were and are different from the rest of the US), little if any influence from black music.

The question is:
*****Does this make it jazz that is less "real" and the other more real?****

The jury is still out. ####

I think the jury is very much “in”. As with those two cousins, our impressions and reactions to each have as much to do with who we each are as individuals and how we judge that sort of thing as does the reality of who they are. The generalities don’t work and our personal criteria in judging may not be and probably aren’t anyone else’s. Besides, I thought you recently wrote that you didn’t think that genetics (black music) should be the determining factor for “soul” (“more real”). I agree with you, it shouldn’t.

Both were excellent versions of "Nica's Dream"; the West Coast version kind of flowed and oozed, while the East Coast was "hard riding"; imagine an outlaw making his get away from the posse across the badlands, you could hear Horace Silver riding hard on those keys, while Carl Perkins was laid back and cool.

The East Coast was hot and explosive, full of emotion; Junior Cook, on tenor, and Blue Mitchell on trumpet were lightening quick, and jazzy to the extreme; which is what East Coast is all about, I started sweating just listening to it.

If you have a temperature, and want to cool off, you need West Coast, but if you want to get hot and excited, it's East Coast.

Frogman, evidently, you haven't spent much time in El A, as soon as you get there, you know you're in a different world, and West Coast jazz reflects that casual, cool, laid back life style; there is no such thing as a necktie in almost all of El A.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2nbtYg8YGA

While there are exceptions to any "Generalization", a generalization can be made in regard to West Coast jazz, and it absolutely reflects the lifestyle of the people.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwAAjnqdB4w

I think frogman made a lot of good points and I agree with him. Not trying to start a war here but if you blindfolded any jazz aficionados, man or woman of any race and played many different variants of jazz, (songs they were not familiar with) they would never be able to tell what race the musicians are.