Another amateur in need of advice


Hello all. I'm basically as green as they come, and am looking for some advice in putting together my first 2- channel audio system. Looking to keep it analog, with vinyl playback being the primary purpose of this whole escapade. If I feel compelled to stream something, i would just get a decent bluetooth receiver to appease the crowd of an informal get-together. 

I am looking to experience an "audiophile-grade" sound, but one that is also a giddy and involving listen. Some bass presence would be welcome (newb). In any case, I would prefer to keep the budget under $5k. First question - do I need an integrated amplifier? Can I just get an amplifier and connect the Lounge phono stage that I'm leaning towards? Or connect a CD player or radio tuner? Basically, does a power amp require a pre-amp, which it seems that an integrated provides? As far as integrated amps, I was first leaning towards the newer Rega Brio, but then I heard about the Rogue Sphinx V2. But then I read about all the noise issues with the Sphinx, which really turned me off from it. Noise issues would really steal the jam from my doughnut. The Heed Elixir seems to tick a lot of boxes, but it also seems that it really imparts it's own texture to the music. Maybe that's a good thing? A budgetary stretch - the Croft integrated looks pretty dang cool. If I only need an amplifier rather than an integrated for my purposes, any opinions on the Croft Series 7? 

As far as speakers, I'm as lost as the previous paragraph suggests. Right now leaning towards the Quad S-2, but was considering the KEF LS50 until I read that they sound best with a more powerful amp. Ditto for the Dynaudio Excite X14. And apparently the LS50s are rather bright sounding? Was not considering floor-standers until I found out that the Monitor Audio Silver 300s are pretty easy to drive. Every gosh-darn review I read only sends me deeper down the spiral of confusion and indecisiveness. 

My turntable choice is pretty set - the Mofi ultra deck with the better cartridge. Since it's $2200, it kind of eats up the budget considering the additional costs of cabling and, potentially, speaker stands. But it seems that it's the sort of component that I'll keep for life. 

I'd appreciate any words of guidance and wisdom! Have a good one! 
cleanshirt
Old made in England Audiolab integrateds were excellent for the price, one model even had a phono stage. Probably not as good as newer British moderately priced integrateds but you might be able to find one on ebay for $150 or so. I got one in the closet as a back-up, not bad at all to begin with. But you would want to upgrade later.
Cleanshirst here is what we would tell you in 30 years of professional experience.

1: Get the foundation as good as you can which means better speakers and amplifier, which means spending less on the deck.

There are source first audiophiles and we totally agree that a better source makes a huge difference, however, you will have more difficulty hearing the improvements in the source on a lower level amplifier or less full range loudspeakers.

One of the best bits of advice we have given our clients in a similar situation is to purchase a Rega P3 the current table is $1100 with an Elyis cartridge and the sound is fantastic, one of the coolest things you can do is to easily upgrade from the Rega in the future by removing the tonearm, the Rega tonearms are universally praised and have been used for years by many companies on their tables so you can in the future take your arm and cart and install that in a zillion other tables that all accept a Rega mount.

Another way of getting better sound is by using dealer demos.

You should always go for a floor standing loudspeaker over a bookshelf as the floor standing loudspeakers will have a much bigger sound and take up the same amount of floor space as a monitor on a stand.
Your choice of the Quad speakers is a good one they are amazing for a budget speaker the floor standing S4 at $1,800.00 will be very hard to beat they have unbelievable treble clarity and throw a big sound stage.
As per amplifiers the Nuprime Ida 8 is very impressive at $1,000.00 and the Rega Brio has an excellent phono stage and is a terrific little amplifier.
So here would be our recommendations:
Rega Brio                $1,000Rega RP6 Elyis cart $1,100Quad S4   speakers $1,800
brand new                $3,900.00

if you went for your deck  Add $1100
and you are still at $5k and if you were to purchase a system like that many dealers would throw in the cables i know we would.

The only missing parts of the equation is what kind of music do you listen to and have you heard any of this gear?  The type of music you listen to will help guide your choice of speakers if you like bass heavy music many speakers may not do it for you.

You should go and visit some dealers and determine what kind of sound do you like.

Dave and TroyAudio Doctor NJ


Why not if the OP likes Quads ? Only I would get Rega P6 with Exact MM cartridge and next in line Rega integrated with phono. That would be about $1700 more, that's $5600 without cables and power cords.
I'll throw out my anecdotes FWTW.

  • Component allocation: I agree with some others that a large portion should go toward speakers. They contribute the greatest amount of distortion by far - that's a fact, therefore you'll want good ones. This isn't to say you want speakers with the most impressive specs on paper - such specs are often meaningless.

  • Turntables: I think you've picked a good one. ~$1500 is where turntables really begin to shine. The MoFi and Technics 1200GR are probably the best current offerings in that range.

  • Integrateds: I agree with others that it should possibly account for the smallest slice of your budget. There are many great budget integrateds out there right now. IME however, the Sphinx V2 is not one of them - not because of noise floor, but because it produces very weak bass at lower volumes. My local Rogue dealer agrees. The Yamaha A-S801 is better and fewer $$$. A used Exposure is also a good recommendation. I haven't heard it but the Outlaw RR2160 is an intriguing piece that measures well and seems to have many satisfied owners.

  • Phono preamps: don't underestimate the importance of a good phono preamp. I've owned the Lounge LCR, and while it's good for the price there is much better performance to be had. Since analog will be your primary medium (or you think it will), I would at least get the LCR Gold or the LCR with Robert's factory upgrades (probably just have to call him about those). I was very skeptical of the importance of the phono preamp until I leaped beyond entry-level units. That MoFi package should be very well deserving of a $700^ preamp.

  • KEF LS50s: They are not bright speakers - not anywhere near as bright as the typical B&W, Revel, or Focal speaker. I think those who claim they're bright are pairing them with subpar electronics and/or using excessive toe-in. KEF also recommends 24" stands which place them below ear height for most listeners. IME, when placed properly, they're actually about as warm as you're likely to find in modern speakers, aside from a very slight metallic overtone (as is the case with 95% of metal drivers). Most are probably using them with suboptimal placement. Until I got a pair of Tannoy XT6Fs, the LS50s were my favorite speakers under ~$3K. The $1500 Tannoys (with average dealer discount) now top my list of best budget speakers - which includes the likes of Vandy 1Cis, Magnepan 1.7s, and MA Silver 200s. This isn't to claim they're the best value out there, but the best value out of the many models I have experience with. They offer many of the LS50 strengths, but with greater bass depth and output, and none of the metallic overtone. The Tannoys also manage to produce good dynamics at moderate volumes, which is pretty rare among modern speakers in general. 




 




It depends on if your vinyl is new pressings of newer music or vintage or repressed older music.  During late 1980s the common media to the public shifted from 'records' to CDs.  During that crossover period, many sound engineers where thinking vinyl and it was pressed on CD and sounded horrible.  The frequency distribution and dynamic range of CD and vinyl even from the same mastered originals are quite different.  Also, once when you're over 40 your ability to hear cymbals and higher pitches declines preciptously.  I have auditioned CD and vinyl of the same consumer-available source material, as just purchased new pressings of each in blind hearing tests for audio people aged from 15 to 50.  EVERYONE knows the difference between a CD and vinyl, blindfolded, at reference volume.  However, vinyl people say vinyl feels warmer. CD is more 'accurate' and dynamic and 'cleaner', but maybe too bright.

For some bad news.  In your price target range, you simply won't get today's version of audiophile.  You can get decent 'home quality' if you follow all the advice above in the postings.  But you won't even get prosumer or enthusiast.  'Audiophile' is very expensive today because manufacturers have been raising their prices over time, and especially over the past ten years for some equipment that essentially is the same schematic, they've just added some digital capabilities.  Copper has gotten alot more expensive and they're the green people who want hi-fi as class D, instead of A, or A/AB.  I would suggest stay in the AB world.  'A' on its own isn't powerful enough except for boutique applications and D is really the same as the arguments about 'high current' amps, etc.  These are excuses to not use more expensive raw ingredients, but rather high R&D to simulate the former when there are extremely popular amp designs that enthusiasts love, but they don't make any longer as an industry.  Try to buy a 'quart' of ice cream made with 'milk' and 'cream' and 'sugar' at a grocery store if you need empirical evidence.

Back to the question....What was also not presented was that if you're using vinyl, most vinyl sounds best on its second or third play.  The first play gets some of the microscopic manufacturing debris out.  Enthusiasts and audiophiles when 'records' were the main source, would immediately re-record albums to tape or reel-to-reel and when only in the mood, listen to the vinyl.  It's in inherently destructive media.  You ruin the record every time you play it.  Despite balancing techniques on the tone-arm, gravity still exerts force in the groove.

Also, you need a very good quality album cleaner, like $500, wet cleaner.  Buy anti-static sleeves and store your vinyl upright.  Upgrade the stock cartridge of whatever record player you buy.  It would not spend more than $500 on that (turntable and upgraded cartridge/needle..so $350 on the turn-table and $150 on the thing on the end of the tone-arm), but make sure its __direct drive__ and use a smartphone app or get one old-school-style that you can monitor the RPM speed via strobe.

Keep in mind, at louder volumes, you're going to hear the ssssh, ssssh, sssh of the media.  It's unavoidable.  Avoid 'pop's' using religious cleaning before playing each 'record' each time.  No one's mentioned wow or flutter and also if the vinyl isn't PERFECTLY flat....don't play it.  Put it in a frame, on the wall, but get another new or used copy from a new trusted source.

Speakers are a matter of taste, but physics is physics.  Speakers push air.  Speakers waste 90% of the electrical energy as heat.  Do not buy exotic manga, low ohm, electrostatic, whatevers if you're not used to them already.  Basically if you need to plug a speaker into an outlet, don't get it.  Based upon your room specs you should get floorstanding 2 or 3-way speakers that have some decent mass (like 40 lbs each) to get decent bass.  Also, __placement__ is a big deal as well.

Now I've spent around $1000 of your $5000 (record player, cleaner, accessories), less $2500 or so on hefty speakers of your choice, not gimmick satellites that you need to sit perfectly in front of to get the bass and treble respond they report.  Some will argue bass is non-directional as a knee jerk.  It is true for ambient noise, unwanted noise, sound reinforcement, etc.  As far as feeling the thump of bass drums and guitar, there is more than 'frequency' to that and its recreation than arguments about non-directional bass.  For live concerts, stand on the floor for part of the concert and then go in the stands.  Now tell me 'bass' as insomuch rather than test-tones is non-directional.  Your chest will feel it differently.  Speakers push air.  Bigger speakers push more air.

You've got $1500 left at this point.   Do not buy fancy wires or interconnects.  Use fairly short distances of a reasonable thick gauge wire and make sure they are attached well at the endpoints.  Do not fall prey to 'yes but its a high current amp'.  Electricity is electricity and you are using something that uses capacitive resistive elements.  Salespeople turn up high current amp gain levels to really high numbers and scream over the noise 'see, its just as loud as those other systems'.  You want power reserves and room to dial-in the volume level you want.  Get something that will sound decent at volume 3 or 4 (or 10).  If it needs setting 7,8, 9 or 10 to get musical, move on.  Get a vintage __receiver__ of 100 watts or more that has been recapped and/or refurbished by a professional or get a re-issue two-channel system from some of the bigger Japanese names.  You can always get a professional to re-hab a receiver for you for $500 or so.  Don't get anything made in the 1980's.  Either late 1960's, any 1970's or earlier than 1995 but not 1980 anything.  During the 'power wars' of the 1970's there were many brands that are not-so-great now, but they were very-great then power-houses.  You want a receiver that weighs 30 lbs or more because you want large capacitors, a solid chassis and a very heavy power supply....the more copper the better.

You, my friend also need something with a 'loudness' feature because you want to listen at loud and soft levels and get a decent experience either way.  That's the catch-term feature that will do it.  Modern receivers and pre-amps usually do NOT have these feature.  Also, do not try to over-engineer your system on specs and sound levels or noise levels.  Nothing has been invented since the invention of the transistor and its basic application as a sound amplifier that makes any amplifier of today so so so much better than what was sold 30, 40 or 50 years ago.  You just need to refresh old capacitors.  They dry out and die but are relatively cheap to replace.  Every year, you get marketing that everything is the newest and best its ever been.  That's simply not true.  For example, a well-maintained McIntosh system from the 1960's or even 1990's bought in 'todays' dollars will be on par with any new system if you adjust for hearing loss and dollar ego.  Also, every amp version and 'brand' has a different color according to the designer because a truly 'perfect' amp would sound horrible.

Good luck and spend the extra money I saved you on lots and lots of new and used 'records'.  Also, go find some real-life vinyl people by going to a vintage vinyl store and talk to the owner or clerks and ask them what vinyl sounds best on.  They probably have a pretty decent setup in the stores they can show you.  They just don't have the 'new' version of it sitting in boxes.  I know they will not blurt out go buy a newer design NAD amp, etc.  It's just part of the adventure.