Horns: Why don't they image well?


Anyone have a theory?

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erik_squires

I was in the room next to Volti for several years at RMAF, where Greg was showing the Vittoras.  Magnificent speakers.  Being a competitor I really wanted to hear "something wrong": with them, and utterly failed. Kudos to Greg Roberts for his speaker designs, and for making his  expertise available to people with Klipschorns and Klipsch Belles.   

Duke

@audiokinesis --


My statement about the Oblate Spheroid profile was based on my understanding that it is the mathematical optimum for minimizing detrimental internal reflections within the horn. There are other profiles optimized for other things - minimum phase, wavefront preservation, etc.

Duke

My aim with your earlier quoted statement wasn’t specific, but obviously that can be problematic in itself - sorry for not being more clear. I appreciate your info on the OSWG’s - I remember reading Mr. Geddes "White Paper" (i.e.: thesis or whatever) on this matter, and it was an interesting read. It seems to truly benefit from this design and minimize internal reflections within the horn as proposed a foam plug of some specific type is needed, but he may have patented this solution.

I guess my main gripe comes with questioning the usefulness, in some instances at least, of knowing about minutiae design "tech details" and how these are convertible into or relate to actual perceived sound. The designer/developer him- or herself should have a closer bearing perhaps, but oftentimes I feel such knowledge presented to the end user, illuminating it may be as a field and entity in itself, has a tendency to produce disciples almost or followers of a brand/principle rather than critical, informed individuals that would seek not to equate too easily. Perhaps I come off setting the bar too low here; I don’t mean to imply the worst of people, but pragmatically speaking I believe this is what marketing does in many cases. That wasn’t what I got away with reading your posts above.

As an endeavor I also have very high respect for Mr. Weiss’ OMA speakers, and look forward to hearing them at some appropriate point in the future. They’re a revival or testament of sorts to speakers as they really should be: large (as physics dictate), highly sensitive (to be used in conjunction with the topologically most simply tube amps), and made with natural, high quality materials where design follows function (and not the other way round); speakers that takes place in one’s home environment as uninhibited and beautifully imposing sound (re)producers. As much though as OMA is a celebration almost of old-school horn/-hybrid speakers, that overall vibe is tempered somehow by the insistence on the use and prowess of the conical horn profile as the best of the bunch, and at the same time shooting into the corner the rest as sub-standard material that can’t rise to the level of something (equally?) good. It’s arrogant, I find, and unfortunate/uninformed really. Like saying: horn speakers are great, as long as they’re mine. That may not be what Mr. Weiss truly feels about the matter, but it comes off that way.

I guess that was my specific aim..

I guess my main gripe comes with questioning the usefulness, in some instances at least, of knowing about minutiae design "tech details" and how these are convertible into or relate to actual perceived sound. The designer/developer him- or herself should have a closer bearing perhaps, but oftentimes I feel such knowledge presented to the end user, illuminating it may be as a field and entity in itself, has a tendency to produce disciples almost or followers of a brand/principle rather than
critical, informed individuals that would seek not to equate too easily.
@phusis

Very well put. There’s a chasm between theory and measurements vs. perception and desirability.

Some companies, like JBL, Bose and Harman, make perception and desirability a hallmark of their research in addition to the speaker physics they are so well known for.

I also agree, a lot of this is a lot of fun to talk about, but perception may be a whole other story. The late Linkwitz was one of many experienced engineers and audiophiles who also promoted this view.

My recommendation for every audiophile: Build at least 1 pair of loudspeakers in your hobby career. You’ll be a much better informed consumer than everyone who has not.

Best,

E
To give an example of this, there's time coincident speakers like old Thiel and current Vandersteen. 

Despite the technical claims made for them, the overall design has not overwhelmed the speaker industry. 

Lots of fun to talk about, and an interesting engineering challenge, but the final result has mixed reviews.  This one concept does not seem to have convinced the market. 

Best,

E
^ I suspect the reason the design philosophy has not caught on with many other manufacturers is that they’re not up to the challenge. It’s a lot easier to ignore the time element than to execute it correctly.
Intetestingly, both companies have been amongst the most successful high end US manufacturers.