2. digital
  3. 1235688379

New DAC Not a Dramatic Improvement?

Ok, So after much thought and asking questions here on audiogon as to whether I should get a new cdp or DAC, I decided on a DAC because I plan on implementing a music server with a Mac Mini. I got it last week and hooked it up so that I could do A/B comparisons with my cdp as is, and through the DAC. My cdp is a 1-2 year old Onkyo dv-sp405 dvd/cd player. At first I was impressed. The bass and vocals were more defined, and there seemed to be more space. Not a lot more space, but just a little bit more openess. The vocals were also moved forward in the soundstage and had more thickness. The thing is, none of these things were very dramatic. THe more time I have sat and listened and done comparisons on many cd's I find the results vary. On some cd's there is significant improvement, and on others, hardly noticeable. In a blind test, do I think I could reliably say whether I was listening to the cdp directly or through the DAC? Let's just say I wouldnt bet my life on it. I probably wouldnt even bet 20$ on it, unless I could hear the two back to back, and on some recordings, not even then.

Now I know about diminishing returns, but I would think the difference between a 150$ dvd/cdp and a 2K$ DAC would be pretty obvious. On top of that, My DAC is hooked up with Transparent Cables (MW Super) and my cdp with 50$ Monster Cables.

Continuing.. I expect some people with say that a good dac needs a good transport. Some will probably say that the dac is being held back by the onkyo as a transport. I have also compared the cdp through the DAC against apple lossless files played from my computer through USB. They are identical.

What could be the weak link? I do not want to say what DAC I am using but lets just say it is a very recent one and around 2K. It is from a very respected company and very well reviewed. My other gear is a McIntosh MA6450 integrated, gallo ref 3.1 speakers, transparent cables. Could it be that my amp is not very revealing? I am thinking about selling the DAC and getting a cheaper one (DAC MAGIC, PS AUDIO DL3) since I will need one for my Mac Mini anyway. Honestly, I just dont think I can justify having 2K in my current DAC for the minimal difference.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.
farjamed
newbee
4,093 posts
 
That you can't reliably hear differences is not surprising for a lot of reasons....and Tvads advise is sound.

Consider that 1) Your equipment may not be resolving enuf to reveal subtle differences that exist in many ss digital devices.
Consider that 2) Your present listening skills are not attuned to the differences and/or that different devices can make, or that these differences are not important to you (yet).

The more advanced your equipment in general and your listening experience the easier the differentials become. At some point in time most everyone hears no difference, then they hear some difference which may or may not be important. Then they hear every difference, and lastly they not only hear every difference but the differences are all meaningful to them.

Take Tvads advice and don't worry about the fine points. :-)
tvad
9,467 posts
 
02-26-09: Farjamed

Do you think something such as the the MHDT Labs Havana or Paradisea DAC would sound different?

They would sound different. No question about it.

The issue is whether they would offer a substantial "improvement" over your present DAC or CD player. I believe the answer lies in the fact that you report hearing a small difference when using your $2K DAC versus your CD player.

The Havana and Paradisea are less expensive, can be found used, and have pretty good resale, so you have little to lose by buying a used one and trying it.

You may like it, but based on your comments using the $2K DAC, I wouldn't count on an "Ah-Ha!" moment.
photon46
1,008 posts
 
Farjamed, it's healthy to sustain skepticism. Good for both mental and fiscal health. I was in the same camp as you, very skeptical of the effects of power conditiong/cables. Now, I couldn't imagine using stock power cords. However, every situation, system, and set of ears is different. There is no universally applicable solution. When I had equipment with less robust and well engineered power supplies, I found power conditioning very worthwhile. After upgrading cd player and preamps, I found power cords upgrades to be much more worthwhile than the power conditioner and ended up preferring things without the conditioner. In the end though, it is true that no tweak, cable, or conditioner is going to dramatically change the character of a component. They can add small, but audible, increments of improvement though. To one listener, that is worthwhile money spent. To another, a colossal waste of money.
objective1
95 posts
 
dumb question (and i read through the other responses quickly so sorry if i missed this point)... but is the DAC brand new?

I know that my Dac3 sounded significantly different out of the box than after 500 hours of burn in...
stanwal's avatar
stanwal
3,147 posts
 
There is a school of thought expressed by some, most notably the reviewers at HIFICRITIC, that there has been an actual regression in sound quality from that of 15 years ago. They think that most modern CD decoders and players have opted for parts that measure well but do not sound particularly good. I cannot entirely reject this as most of my digital equipment is from this period and holds its own against some expensive modern gear. They recently tested several players in the $3000 range and were disappointed with the sound quality. They also tested an MSB Platinum DAC 111 whose price there was 10,000 pounds. It scored considerably better but at almost exactly the current rating [ they adjust the ratings for older equipment] for my Audio Synthesis DAX from 1992. They find that there has been considerable improvement at the very top of the market but not necessarily in most of it and an actual regression toward the bottom. I neither endorse nor reject these opinions as my own experience has been too limited to form an accurate assessment.
More to discover