get a sub or two
What is the most dramatic way of increasing a speaker's Bass and Low mid?
Hi-
I am wondering what would give the most dramatic increase in bass and low mid projection/Volume, even on account of accuracy ...
My speakers can go down to 28hz but i need to boost it’s level, not frequency extension. They are 2 way with bass reflex port. 6.5" woofer size and a tweeter. Floor standing.
My floor is old hardwood strips.
placement and coupling methods are the first things that come to mind. I do not want to add an equalizer at this point.
Spikes, footers, concrete platform, direct floor flush contact? anything and everything that YOU know works.
Speculations on untested methods are not needed as i need real life experience from people.
Thanks!
Rea
I am wondering what would give the most dramatic increase in bass and low mid projection/Volume, even on account of accuracy ...
My speakers can go down to 28hz but i need to boost it’s level, not frequency extension. They are 2 way with bass reflex port. 6.5" woofer size and a tweeter. Floor standing.
My floor is old hardwood strips.
placement and coupling methods are the first things that come to mind. I do not want to add an equalizer at this point.
Spikes, footers, concrete platform, direct floor flush contact? anything and everything that YOU know works.
Speculations on untested methods are not needed as i need real life experience from people.
Thanks!
Rea
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Try Lyngdorf 2170 at your home. This looks interesting, however im enjoying my Vac Tube amp too much... maybe a similar processor only to go in the Tape loop of the My tube preamp? Just the "Room Perfect" type thing? Does that exist in any form? Although that would be my last resort as i want to stay analog for Turntable. Digital Playback is fine...Its digital to begin with... |
If you place them in corners, assuming that works well, you might also spot-treat the walls to either side of the tweeter with thick foam. The idea is to selectively target the very wide-angle off-axis energy from the tweeter down at the bottom end of its range, where its radiation pattern is the widest. I have not tried this specific application of spot-treatment with foam because I've never been in the same situation as you, but I have used it in other situations. Don't overdo it with the foam or you'll suck the life out of the sound. I'd use a strip about 1 foot tall and maybe 6" wide, centered at tweeter height, right were any energy traveling sideways across the baffle would hit each of the walls that meet in that corner. And it doesn't have to be foam - thick textiles work fine too. Duke |
You can use Lyngdorf 2170 as Dac and Room correction. It’s dac is pretty good which will be better than any Dac under 4K$. If you want to use turntable, you shall have optional analogue input to connect from phono amplifier. I got good result using line out of Lyngdorf to Rogue Audio Magnum II to drive my Lansche 4.1 speakers. |
28 Hz from single 6.5 " woofer ? What speakers do you have ? But if they are that good - better source and amp and cables and power cords, yeah. Which ones ? I have no idea. Putting them against the wall or in corners would probably be the wrong move unless they were designed to be placed there. But at least that's easy to try. |
Thanks! Appreciate all the Acoustic ideas and concepts. Thats where im trying to get here. Not buying more cables. No cable is going to give you bass. maybe .5 of a db at some frequency is all it might do... even that would be miracle. Coupling and placement, which is for free (sorry Audiophiles that it don’t cost thousands to move a speaker... how boring ;-) So spikes or Feet or Flat speaker on the floor with nothing ? |
I know you mentioned you didn't want to try equalization, but........if all else fails, maybe trying a Schitt Audio Loki equalizer might help. I have read it is transparent to the source whether it is in or out of the circuit. I think the frequencies it handles are 20hz, 400hz, 4k, and 8k. Fairly cheap at $150. IMO. |
I have always run my mains full range and augmented the low freq with a sub. I know a lot of people hate subs but if you set the crossover low you will avoid the boomy sound subs get a bad rap for . I use a Velodyne SMS 1 as my lpw pass filter and experimented with the low pass crossover and slope . The slope is very helpful in tuning the sub to blend seamlessly with the mains. A lot of new subs auto eq also which also helps eliminate the boom caused by the room mode... |
@Dumbeat Try one or more from the cable co or by used . You will be shocked . I have sold my Dominus power cord and the XLR interconnects , but only because i needed the money . I will own them again . To me they are my favorite cables that have ever tried .or owned . They are that good IMO They have awesome Bass and very good clarity and PRAT |
I owned Merlins for several years. Bobby recommended setting the speakers 6 feet apart and then listen and widen them if needed. I ended up at 6.5 feet wide. I sat 7 feet, 3 inches from the tweeters. The speakers were 3.5 feet from the wall behind the speakers, and about 3 feet from the side walls. With this placement, I felt the sound was quite good, very coherent, with no problems with bass or midrange. This was in a small-ish room, 14 x 13. I tried the speakers in my 20 x 18 living room that opens up into a similar sized dining room. If you can picture it, there are only 3 walls in my living room. The VSM’s did not sound good in this room, hard as I tried. The sound was quite thin. |
As for cables with Merlins, I found they only made a subtle difference, if at all. I tried many expensive ones - Cardas, JPS, Virtual Dynamics, Coincident, just to name a few. I ended up using el-cheapo Anti-Cables and putting my money elsewhere in my system. Once I got my system sorted out, I did buy Audience AU24e cables and felt they were just right for my room and associated gear. I "thought" they had a little less glare and were more natural, but it did nothing for bass. Try playing around with placement first. |
Spikes = better imaging and clarity, "tighter" bass, but not Audiokinesis. You say that on spikes better image and clarity, bit you don't say of full contact with floor, with no footing at all enhances bass. Any experience to share there? Thanks |
I have always run my mains full range and augmented the low freq with a sub I do not think the issue is in the Sub Bass area, but rather in the low mids and bass, from around 200hz to 50hz. Its like a hole. I would have thought its my room that has standing waves there, but it is not since other speakers easily reproduce this area with authority... sometimes even too much... |
That is your mistake to think that cables are the last 1%. With the risk of sounding patronizing(im not- i promise) after 30+ years of making Records at some of the best studios ever i can tell you that : A. Cables are 1% as long as they are decent quality and not super cheap stuff that really degrades the integrity of the electric signal. B. The best recordings you listen to through your $5,000 per interconnect were made on a $20 Mogami Mic cable... so.... |
Purist Dominus cord on power amp works great, bass sounds right. But before that - real no BS power amps, then power cords. Most recordings suck, by the way, maybe "1% cables" is one of the reasons. Another, clean record head, another - use good electronics and microphones, and finally - don’t do lousy job. |
dumbeat OP Yes? isn’t the direct connection to the floor, full on, amplifying somewhat the lows? >>>>But not much more than an inch or two above the floor with cones, or so it would appear. Would isolation not kill that acoustic amplification? >>>>Isolation (decoupling) would prevent mechanical feedback, if that is an issue. |
I don’t find my VSMs short on bass, low midrange, or macro-dynamics in a medium sized 20’ x 14’ room with a 7.5’ ceiling. IIRC, the BBAM adds +5db at 35hz and rolls off entirely below 28hz. There is a bit of port effect reinforcement below 30hz. There is nothing in Stereophile’s measurements to account for the OP’s experience-- except for a roll-off in the 2hz crossover region on axis with the tweeter. (Response is flat with ear positioned at the level of the top of the woofer basket.) You might check for DC output on the BBAM. The woofers can be damaged if the op amps in the BBAM fail to DC and the owner’s amp doesn’t block DC. |
dumbeat OP Steve Hoffman might have different opinion on that. Brian Lucey also. |
Doing a bit of armchair research is helpful; the speaker specs at 33 Hz +/- 2dB, tight specs. So, 28 Hz +/- 3 dB is not inconceivable. Then, there shouldn't be any "hole". So, I see the frustration of dumbeat, as it seems there should be enough low end presence. However, this is your classic tiny tower, and you simply are not going to get prodigious bass with smallish drivers in such cabinet, regardless of the fine quality of a Merlin speaker. If you try to push such a speaker in an attempt to jack up the presence you are now flirting with distortion. Not an easy balancing act. It is telling that recommendation was to put a "BAM" unit with the speaker. I found this in an old Stereophile review, "BAM Bass Augmentation Module: Supplies 5.2dB of boost at 35Hz and infrasonic rolloff below 27Hz." It seems to me the BAM was a concession of the weakness of this speaker in regards to the bass presence region. Nice design in many respects, but problematic in the region dumbeat has pinpointed. To avoid such things one typically has to move away from skinny, smallish towers toward larger cabinets and bass drivers. Note also that the ATC has a bass adjustment from -2 to +3 dB; again, such things are necessary when speakers struggle to produce "natural" presence in the mid-bass. As usual, size matters in both cabinets and drivers. Finally, a word about cables. Studio use of cables has little relevance to domestic systems and cables. The applications are vastly different, and the beneficial nature of working with cables in the home becomes apparent quickly (If one bothers to try). An exceptional way to mediocre sound is to ignore aftermarket cables, and or stay with "affordable" cables to avoid comparisons and advancement. Having worked with dozens of brands of cables over decades not only are cables responsible for far, far more than 1% of a home system's sound, but the selection of cables can literally make or break the components and speaker's performance. YMMV |
Doug, the elegance of the Merlin VSM/BBAM design was that a Scanspeak 8545 driver has sufficient excursion to be EQ’d into a full-range midrange/bass driver, provided that the EQ fully attenuates frequencies below 30hz. Its admittedly constrained dynamics at high volumes for large rooms is the price that one pays for the coherence of a crossoverless point-source from 30hz to 2Khz. As digital crossovers and equalizers were mediocre in those days, the analog BBAM was the ticket. |
An exceptional way to mediocre sound is to ignore aftermarket cables, and or stay with "affordable" cables to avoid comparisons and advancement. Having worked with dozens of brands of cables over decades not only are cables responsible for far, far more than 1% of a home system’s sound, but the selection of cables can literally make or break the components and speaker’s performance. thanks Douglas. Well, whatever huge differences in cables ot should be measurable. Would you provide a chart of different wire and the Measured difference they made? Otherwise its like asking someone why he believes in god. Belief has nothing to do with this topic- Its not a serious argument. I need data. There are more golfen ear people claim its a marketing scam(to get tons of money out of rich people who think there is a real differemce) than people who actually use it.. so the jury is more than out on this one. i hear claims like “oh i got so much more bass with cardass this or that”. Which frequency? By how much? Bell? Shelf? and the claims of larger stereo field... do they mean more phase issues...? |