Preference for separate phono stages?

Raul,

I am a big believer in phono stage/ cartridge compatibility. For a simple example, the Ortofon SPU is designed to have a SUT in line. It sounds better this way. Also, your condemnation of the PC-1 earlier... could very well be reversed using a lean, solid state type phono. But the lean solid state phono would not sound best with Dynavector XV-1s or Lyra Titan I. It is all about system synergy. YOu just want everyone to believe that there are absolute bests, when in fact some items that are less than the best, may very well be the best in the correct system and perform adimarably above what you heard in your system. Now..this does not mean that in your system they might be poor, or that in someone elses system you might not like them. It is what it is. I have realized while some like sound A others like sound B. My bias are pretty simple. No hissy tizzy highs or thinness allowed. But too thick is no good either. In that regard certain speakers will throw me out of the room. And so will certain phono stage/cartridge combinations.

Now - changing subject but relevant; isn't it amazing how VdH can tune a cartridge with a few adjustments to bring it into a different league of sound. Even more so, this tells you that even cartridges don't always sound alike due to slight difference in production etc. and thus there is no absolutes.

Hence, my strong push for system synergies. Anyone saying otherwise is just trying to push an agenda.

Dear darren: I understand you and for the most part I agree with you, let me to explain a little about synergy from my point of view ( that it is only that a point of view and not in any absolute terms. ): I can't comment on your SPU example because I don't know the history behind that design and I don't have yet the opportunity to try it in my today audio system.

When you speak of the PC-1 or XV-1 trying to match to a Phonolinepreamp my point of view is that if one of these cartridges ( or both ) needs a special sound " signature " in a Phonolinepreamp to performs at its best this means to me that something could be wrong around those audio items: if the Phonolinepreamp is an accurate/low distortions ( not analytical ) ( no colorations ) design then the cartridge has a little problem ( assuming good tonearm match and right set-up and loading. ) and that cartridge is not up to the task and of course things can be on reverse too when the Phonolinepreamp is full of distortions/colorations/inaccuracies, in both cases there is no synergy.

Darren, if you take a look to the Agon second hand audio item ads you can make a question: why so many and different ( almost new/mint ) audio items for sale? what's wrong?: well maybe many of those persons are looking for synergy and they don't find it yet and IMHO they don't find it yet because what almost all are doing is to buy/try audio items that are compensating the errors of some audio items in their audio systems and with this compensation they think they can achieve that critical and elusive SYNERGY but sooner or latter this kind of " audio attitude " show the " cooper " because the sum/add of two errors ( IMHO ) in my audio experiences almost never give you the right/correct and precise performances.

Do you know how many years that I don't buy audio items like: speakers, amplifiers, phono stage, line preamp, etc, etc ?, too many to remember and why is this?, very simple: I already achieve TRUE SYNERGY through my different audio items where I was and am looking for that true-synergy where I don't have to compensate for anything anymore.
Stay where I'm take me not only a lot of years but a lot of real time testing/trying/changing/etc but the reward is worth any effort on that direction.

Do you think that you already achieve in your system TRUE/REAL Synergy?, I know the answer because I know every single audio item in your system ( but the phono stage ) and I know that you don't have electrical synergy ( example ) between the Wilsons and the VTLs because of its impedances.

Now, I'm convinced that people like you, me and several other ones agree in 80%-90% what must be the quality performance that we are looking in our home music sound reproduction systems, we almost all have more coincident " attitude " about that differences.

I know that nothing is perfect but beyond your opinion, mine or any one else: my quest is for be near that " perfection " and I have to say that I don't accept ( normally ) nothing less, this is the main reason why we design/build the Essential Phonolinepreamp and that's why I have my " old " system running with out the normal tendency to change it.

Anyway, I think that we are talking almost on the same subject SYNERGY but the point is that I speak on true/real synergy and till you achieve it or be near it it will be difficult to understand at 100%.

Regards and enjoy the music.
raul.

Raul,

The VTL amps are in fact synergistic w. the Maxx IIs which have a fairly benign impedance curve. I have had big SS amps that can go to to below 1 ohm and the performance was similar w. the VTL having a more life like sense of harmonics. I also know there are different sounds that I might like better w. different music but for most listening I love my current setup w. in the constraints. Now back to topic, I truly believe a phono preamp must be looked at w. the cartridge in mind. Also having a full function phono preamp in my system to compare to my separate allowed me to understand the synergies. The differences are subtle to most people but for me are the difference between magic and just good music. I have had 6 different phono stages in my system. Some world class and I can easily state that in certain situations each one excelled. I would state that the Raven Phono is the most neutral I have owned w. its sole limitation being gain for extremely low output cartridges. But... for some cartridges which are less than neutral or a system that is less than neutral there exist wonderful synergies at lower price points. The benefit of a separate phono allows certain obvious advantages in terms of system building and upgrades. Those who can find a full function preamp that meets all their needs with the right cartridge should be happy. There is no absolute in this hobby.

In that regard, I do find some cartridges benefit from a SUT, some from SS and others from tubes. That should say a lot. Now in terms of convenience factor, tubes can be a hassle if there are too many and SUTs need to be matched to the cartridge and finally, SS phono stages are more sensetive to load matching than the tube ones I have tried. But this is my experience.

Dear Darren: I don't want to follow argue about because for what I read in what you posted I have to say that we are really talking of different issues and in this way is almost impossible to be near an agreement about.

Btw, how can you tell me that this is a beningn speaker electrical impedance curve?:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/805wilson/index4.html

maybe for a different amplifiers that your VTLs that has a little high output impedance, please read about here:

http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/152/index8.html

IMHO I think that there is no synergy ( at least electrical that it is critical to avoid excesive colorations like you have in that amplifier/speaker combination. ) between the maxx 2 and VTls, of course that I respect your opinion but like I told you we are not speaking on the same subject, there is a misunderstood somewhere.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

who feels that a single-chassis line/phono stage is a compromise? Do the advantages of a dedicated power supply mechanical and electromagnetic separation outweigh the disadvantage of another pair of interconnects?

 
Over the past couple years I've covered four standalone phono stages, two linestages, and one full function preamp with comparisons in different combinations. From my experience, it depends on the equipment - how, and how well, the linestage, phono section and power supply circuits are executed, parts quality, chassis, cables, etc, etc. There are too many variables to establish a general principle that is true the majority of the time.
 
As with most gears, there are synergistic combinations, there are always trade-offs, and there are different personal preferences.
 
That said, the full function preamp designer has a bit of an advantage. He know's what linestage will be used. Granted, makers of separates (ARC for instance) will no doubt achieve a nice level of synergy when their own gear is paired together.
 
Remember that over 50% of the gain in an analog rig will come from the phono section. If signal is lost there, it ain't coming back downstream.
 
The ideal result might be described as coming from an unfettered continuum of gain stages, the contributions of each you cannot detect. Posed as your general theoretical question: What is most likely to yield that?
 
Tim