Preference for separate phono stages?

Raul,

The VTL amps are in fact synergistic w. the Maxx IIs which have a fairly benign impedance curve. I have had big SS amps that can go to to below 1 ohm and the performance was similar w. the VTL having a more life like sense of harmonics. I also know there are different sounds that I might like better w. different music but for most listening I love my current setup w. in the constraints. Now back to topic, I truly believe a phono preamp must be looked at w. the cartridge in mind. Also having a full function phono preamp in my system to compare to my separate allowed me to understand the synergies. The differences are subtle to most people but for me are the difference between magic and just good music. I have had 6 different phono stages in my system. Some world class and I can easily state that in certain situations each one excelled. I would state that the Raven Phono is the most neutral I have owned w. its sole limitation being gain for extremely low output cartridges. But... for some cartridges which are less than neutral or a system that is less than neutral there exist wonderful synergies at lower price points. The benefit of a separate phono allows certain obvious advantages in terms of system building and upgrades. Those who can find a full function preamp that meets all their needs with the right cartridge should be happy. There is no absolute in this hobby.

In that regard, I do find some cartridges benefit from a SUT, some from SS and others from tubes. That should say a lot. Now in terms of convenience factor, tubes can be a hassle if there are too many and SUTs need to be matched to the cartridge and finally, SS phono stages are more sensetive to load matching than the tube ones I have tried. But this is my experience.

Dear Darren: I don't want to follow argue about because for what I read in what you posted I have to say that we are really talking of different issues and in this way is almost impossible to be near an agreement about.

Btw, how can you tell me that this is a beningn speaker electrical impedance curve?:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/805wilson/index4.html

maybe for a different amplifiers that your VTLs that has a little high output impedance, please read about here:

http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/152/index8.html

IMHO I think that there is no synergy ( at least electrical that it is critical to avoid excesive colorations like you have in that amplifier/speaker combination. ) between the maxx 2 and VTls, of course that I respect your opinion but like I told you we are not speaking on the same subject, there is a misunderstood somewhere.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

who feels that a single-chassis line/phono stage is a compromise? Do the advantages of a dedicated power supply mechanical and electromagnetic separation outweigh the disadvantage of another pair of interconnects?

 
Over the past couple years I've covered four standalone phono stages, two linestages, and one full function preamp with comparisons in different combinations. From my experience, it depends on the equipment - how, and how well, the linestage, phono section and power supply circuits are executed, parts quality, chassis, cables, etc, etc. There are too many variables to establish a general principle that is true the majority of the time.
 
As with most gears, there are synergistic combinations, there are always trade-offs, and there are different personal preferences.
 
That said, the full function preamp designer has a bit of an advantage. He know's what linestage will be used. Granted, makers of separates (ARC for instance) will no doubt achieve a nice level of synergy when their own gear is paired together.
 
Remember that over 50% of the gain in an analog rig will come from the phono section. If signal is lost there, it ain't coming back downstream.
 
The ideal result might be described as coming from an unfettered continuum of gain stages, the contributions of each you cannot detect. Posed as your general theoretical question: What is most likely to yield that?
 
Tim
 

I believe a single chassis CAN be compromised. I believe a separate pre and phono CAN also be compromised. It all comes down to implementation. Additional compromises CAN be too many components in the signal path, remote volume control, single volume/attenuation, single power supply, etc.

Dan and I have directly A/B'd his four chassis Doshi Alaap (phono power supplies, phono circuits, line power supplies, line circuits) with my two chassis one (power supplies, integrated phono+line circuits).

Of course the Alaap's phono and line stages are designed to work together. As Raul pointed out, the most careful matching between gain stages is critical and I believe the Alaap's audio circuits are essentially identical whether placed in one chassis or two. I guess that makes our comparison useful for this thread, since the only difference is the room for extra power supplies.

Dan's was being delivered that very day by Nick so, being brand new and sounding it, subtle comparisons weren't possible. With that caveat, Dan's extra power supplies did provide an increase in dynamic headroom and weight. It wasn't a huge improvement but it was certainly audible.

For those who haven't heard an Alaap that marked an impressive achievement, since even a two chassis Alaap has dynamic headroom which meets or exceeds anything else we've heard. After four years the damn thing can still shock me with its startling leaps from silence to a wall shaking first impact - and Dan's is stronger. Kinda scary. :-)

The choice of interconnects can have an effect with separates, obviously, but it wouldn't necessarily be a negative effect. What if a separates owner chooses wire that's better than what's used in the integrated version? The results could actually be better. That may be unlikely at the level of a Doshi or Raul's Essential, where every component including wire is specified to the max, but in lower performing units it could easily happen. Drop a set of Nordost Odins between two $1K separates and watch what happens. Foolish? Maybe, but probably a big improvement.

Summary: for the Doshi design, four separate chassis provides some increase in an already amazing level of headroom with no downside we could hear, at least not through the newness of the separates. For other designs, who knows? Implementation is everything, here as everywhere.