Vpi vs. TW Acustic

Sirspeedy, I would have agreed with you years ago, but comparing the TW to some very fine turntables yielded a distinct sonic improvement. Much to be said by the wonderful motor, vibration dissipation, and sonic performance. I know you have your disappointments, but most people who don't have "full range" systems capable of playing bass would not hear a difference between many very good tables. But when you get to the level of a true full range system, the differences in design, isolation, speed stability and energy dissipation become very apparent.

One of the biggest "phoney" rip offs in the high end is on the turntable front!!Here,most folks simply go for the biggest hype products,and seldom use common sense to make a personal decision.

The table is meant to "simply" spin a record,without adding much of it's own character.Of course getting it "perfect" is kinda tough,but there are a host of not very pricey tables that will do the job most admirably.

Yet,this is high end audio,and alot of folks like to think they are getting better performance,because they have spent alot of money.These are the not too high audio IQ hobbyists,who are led by the nose by audio reviewers or,as in the case on this thread(from personal experience)by audio retailers,who have ONE agenda....guess what that might be?

A good VPI or Sota will knock the socks off of the over-priced,underdesigned(but OH So Pretty)Raven!

I agree with you.
Unfortunatey it is not the performance, which counts today. Most buyers have different priorities and of course everyone thinks, he got the best (whatever it is).
The customer normally compares old with new, the usual mistake. An old belt is inferior to a new one, old bearing oil is ....yes, you know.
Most want something, they don‘t know what, but the "machine has to do something", it has to be fast, it has to be powerful in Bass or whatever.
Most units today are highly colored. That means too, they have "something" in some frequency which is always there, "a kind of speed" for example, that means, even Schubert will sound fast, or they have no good abilities in the high frequency range (based on non existing vibration abilities etc....)
But only a few want a 1:1 unit (recording:reproduction), they don‘t know what to do, because it can be possible, that they don‘t like what they hear.
Then it is bad (but in reality it could be right) and they lok for something else. They don‘t know for what, but they know it has to be out there.

20 years ago the magazines had a different policy, they tried - in general - to push the curtain and they made serious comparisons. That's gone. Today it is business, every month a new Hype and we all know, how it can be made.

I listened to the Raven AC a lot of times, well, it is black and heavy.
The Linn LP12 of today.

Sirspeedy, I'm a VPI fan but have you heard the Raven? It seems to be a very good table. Are you speaking from direct experience?

I have to admit I had expected some nasty responses to my "opinion".Impressive that Audiogon "can" be polite when a favorite product is criticized.I think anyone has this right.

The recent thoughts are pretty much on the money,imo,and I have heard the Raven on quite a few occassions.Not really as important as one might think,if you want to break down what a good LP spinner should do!

From 40 years in the hobby,there are some aspects of table design that simply seem to be a good idea,at the very least....

The TW Acoustic Raven does NOT emply them!

This does not mean it cannot allow a record to sound "good",but it is easily bettered by a "Boat Load" of competitive tables,and to go into denial mode only means one is defensive of how their money has been spent.Or,as is so common on this forum,protective of a favored dealer,or group of audio pals.Sheesh!!

Two things come to mind,and it does not require extensive experience or a "full range" system(or even a really good system)to understand a "superior" design(of which the "pretty,and heavy" Raven is NOT).....

First,and products from VPI or SOTA researched this,understood it, and advocated it for years....A good record clamping system will allow the record to develop MUCH MORE inner detail!

Second(this is where SO many mfgrs simply drop the ball,and it is a shame that so many hobbyists are so damn defensive about it....an "effective" suspension!!!

Like a REAL ONE!!!

Oracle,VPI,SOTA,Linn,Walker,Anything designed by "Conti"/Basis Audio "ALL" know this,and if you read the white papers from some of these designers,it is NO stretch to understand that at the very least...."it's not a bad idea to have one".Oh,sorry!That was common knowledge long ago.This is the new high end stuff.Didn't I read recently about some $60,000 table that we should consider SOTA?

Of course one can get into stuff like heavy platters not "really" being all that they are hyped up to being.For example(and unless someone has truly developed something like a Kryptonite bearing)just using "common sense"(not common in the High End)wouldn't a heavier bearing ultimately begin to develop noise,from the mass and weight of "that" platter?Bushings don't like that!OK,I'm being a bit picky!!...

Not really,but I'm attempting to be "thoughtful about how my audio money should be spent.And,anyone is surely open to getting "whatever" they desire....Mine is ONLY a "thought piece"!....Phoney dealers,get rich from some of us putting too much stock in their motives,and attempt to be helpful.

The fact is that high end (at this point in time,and especially in this economy)requires a hobbyist to exercise some "thought" as to what they are buying,and "how" it approaches what they want it to do(the product at hand).

SORRY!I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers,but I do know of a hobbyist who only purchases stuff if it has a vibe of desirability,from a "cost and review popularity standpoint".The fact of the matter is,his set-up has never sounded anything beyond "average"(from a load of other folks familiar with the set-up).

Of course "his" dealer of the moment(who comes on like his "new" best pal)is not about to spoil things,so the beat surely will go on.....Laughable!!...

Btw,the room is attrocious!So,it's a pity actually,but he is happy!...Nothing really wrong there,actually.Yet,and yet,the guy is NOT a "thinking hobbyist",and has been at this for decades.

My advice is to educate oneself as to what is necessary to acquire accuracy in LP playback(or any other audio matter)and try to pick out the most "viable" choice.

You'd be surprised how sensitive a good consumer can be,in short order,especially when spending monies.....There is a load of baloney in "today's" high end!......Far more than at any other time!!Your dealer is NOT your pal!Just ask him if he wants to hang out some week-end!

Best to all

In deciding if a response is worthy or not, enough has been said that my input is needed.

No denying a top suspension is needed. This is correct. Also, I find little will compare to a turntable that has a separate suspension from the table. This is where turntables such as VPI & others can fall short. They are limited in their design to the suspension they can deploy. While an unsuspended deck can be designed with less compromise provided that an external suspension system is in use. Many people do use Vibrplanes, MInus K platforms or the like. There are even those who have suspended turntables that are placed on additional suspension knowing about the limitations of suspension design in the eixisting deck.

Unfortunately some posters here did not get off on a great foot w. certain dealers, or did not receive the discount they wanted towards a purchase and will bad talk a product in light of the fact that they didn't want to pay to own it. You know who you are. I don't find your tactics fair to the other members of this forum.