Vpi vs. TW Acustic

Sirspeedy, I'm a VPI fan but have you heard the Raven? It seems to be a very good table. Are you speaking from direct experience?

I have to admit I had expected some nasty responses to my "opinion".Impressive that Audiogon "can" be polite when a favorite product is criticized.I think anyone has this right.

The recent thoughts are pretty much on the money,imo,and I have heard the Raven on quite a few occassions.Not really as important as one might think,if you want to break down what a good LP spinner should do!

From 40 years in the hobby,there are some aspects of table design that simply seem to be a good idea,at the very least....

The TW Acoustic Raven does NOT emply them!

This does not mean it cannot allow a record to sound "good",but it is easily bettered by a "Boat Load" of competitive tables,and to go into denial mode only means one is defensive of how their money has been spent.Or,as is so common on this forum,protective of a favored dealer,or group of audio pals.Sheesh!!

Two things come to mind,and it does not require extensive experience or a "full range" system(or even a really good system)to understand a "superior" design(of which the "pretty,and heavy" Raven is NOT).....

First,and products from VPI or SOTA researched this,understood it, and advocated it for years....A good record clamping system will allow the record to develop MUCH MORE inner detail!

Second(this is where SO many mfgrs simply drop the ball,and it is a shame that so many hobbyists are so damn defensive about it....an "effective" suspension!!!

Like a REAL ONE!!!

Oracle,VPI,SOTA,Linn,Walker,Anything designed by "Conti"/Basis Audio "ALL" know this,and if you read the white papers from some of these designers,it is NO stretch to understand that at the very least...."it's not a bad idea to have one".Oh,sorry!That was common knowledge long ago.This is the new high end stuff.Didn't I read recently about some $60,000 table that we should consider SOTA?

Of course one can get into stuff like heavy platters not "really" being all that they are hyped up to being.For example(and unless someone has truly developed something like a Kryptonite bearing)just using "common sense"(not common in the High End)wouldn't a heavier bearing ultimately begin to develop noise,from the mass and weight of "that" platter?Bushings don't like that!OK,I'm being a bit picky!!...

Not really,but I'm attempting to be "thoughtful about how my audio money should be spent.And,anyone is surely open to getting "whatever" they desire....Mine is ONLY a "thought piece"!....Phoney dealers,get rich from some of us putting too much stock in their motives,and attempt to be helpful.

The fact is that high end (at this point in time,and especially in this economy)requires a hobbyist to exercise some "thought" as to what they are buying,and "how" it approaches what they want it to do(the product at hand).

SORRY!I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers,but I do know of a hobbyist who only purchases stuff if it has a vibe of desirability,from a "cost and review popularity standpoint".The fact of the matter is,his set-up has never sounded anything beyond "average"(from a load of other folks familiar with the set-up).

Of course "his" dealer of the moment(who comes on like his "new" best pal)is not about to spoil things,so the beat surely will go on.....Laughable!!...

Btw,the room is attrocious!So,it's a pity actually,but he is happy!...Nothing really wrong there,actually.Yet,and yet,the guy is NOT a "thinking hobbyist",and has been at this for decades.

My advice is to educate oneself as to what is necessary to acquire accuracy in LP playback(or any other audio matter)and try to pick out the most "viable" choice.

You'd be surprised how sensitive a good consumer can be,in short order,especially when spending monies.....There is a load of baloney in "today's" high end!......Far more than at any other time!!Your dealer is NOT your pal!Just ask him if he wants to hang out some week-end!

Best to all

In deciding if a response is worthy or not, enough has been said that my input is needed.

No denying a top suspension is needed. This is correct. Also, I find little will compare to a turntable that has a separate suspension from the table. This is where turntables such as VPI & others can fall short. They are limited in their design to the suspension they can deploy. While an unsuspended deck can be designed with less compromise provided that an external suspension system is in use. Many people do use Vibrplanes, MInus K platforms or the like. There are even those who have suspended turntables that are placed on additional suspension knowing about the limitations of suspension design in the eixisting deck.

Unfortunately some posters here did not get off on a great foot w. certain dealers, or did not receive the discount they wanted towards a purchase and will bad talk a product in light of the fact that they didn't want to pay to own it. You know who you are. I don't find your tactics fair to the other members of this forum.

If the response is an insinuation towards my post,I might add that assuming something is meaningless in your case.If I am not the target,then I apologize whole heartedly!

If I am the subject of your response......you know "not" what you speak of...for sure!!

Discounting or bad experiences has "nothing" to do with a vastly overpriced product(not a bad product,btw,just easily bettered for less cash) in comparison to better,lower cost designs.Made "here",and for alot less dosh.

Take the VPI TNT for example...one half the cost and a far more advanced design.Usualy that equates to more detail from a disc.I assume that is what we are striving for.

Interesting thread. I'm not sure how much of it I find to agree with, but it is interesting in ways. Most of all, I find the opinions of the posters to be the most interesting part, not from a technical point of view, but a psychological one. Bantered back and forth are comparisons, even blanket ones, between various makes without any consideration based in true fact. Oh, well. I would like to see some concrete explanations of these premises presented, and I am pretty sure the original poster was hoping for some, too. Owning some brand of turntable doesn't make anyone a pro about sonic presentation of all turntables, suspensions, or anything else.

I suppose I'm a direct competitor of TW Acustic, but I don't believe it is fair for guys to summarily trash their turntable without something other than supposition and insinuation. So far, that's what we have seen, however. To name brands that are better without anything to back up the claims doesn't seem too credible to me.

My suggestion to the OP is that he seek out the turntable, and hear it for himself. Only then can he make an educated decision.

Win