Reviews with all double blind testing?


In the July, 2005 issue of Stereophile, John Atkinson discusses his debate with Arnold Krueger, who Atkinson suggest fundamentally wants only double blind testing of all products in the name of science. Atkinson goes on to discuss his early advocacy of such methodology and his realization that the conclusion that all amps sound the same, as the result of such testing, proved incorrect in the long run. Atkinson’s double blind test involved listening to three amps, so it apparently was not the typical different or the same comparison advocated by those advocating blind testing.

I have been party to three blind testings and several “shootouts,” which were not blind tests and thus resulted in each component having advocates as everyone knew which was playing. None of these ever resulted in a consensus. Two of the three db tests were same or different comparisons. Neither of these resulted in a conclusion that people could consistently hear a difference. One was a comparison of about six preamps. Here there was a substantial consensus that the Bozak preamp surpassed more expensive preamps with many designers of those preamps involved in the listening. In both cases there were individuals that were at odds with the overall conclusion, and in no case were those involved a random sample. In all cases there were no more than 25 people involved.

I have never heard of an instance where “same versus different” methodology ever concluded that there was a difference, but apparently comparisons of multiple amps and preamps, etc. can result in one being generally preferred. I suspect, however, that those advocating db, mean only “same versus different” methodology. Do the advocates of db really expect that the outcome will always be that people can hear no difference? If so, is it the conclusion that underlies their advocacy rather than the supposedly scientific basis for db? Some advocates claim that were there a db test that found people capable of hearing a difference that they would no longer be critical, but is this sincere?

Atkinson puts it in terms of the double blind test advocates want to be right rather than happy, while their opponents would rather be happy than right.

Tests of statistical significance also get involved here as some people can hear a difference, but if they are insufficient in number to achieve statistical significance, then proponents say we must accept the null hypothesis that there is no audible difference. This is all invalid as the samples are never random samples and seldom, if ever, of a substantial size. Since the tests only apply to random samples and statistical significance is greatly enhanced with large samples, nothing in the typical db test works to yield the result that people can hear a difference. This would suggest that the conclusion and not the methodology or a commitment to “science” is the real purpose.

Without db testing, the advocates suggest those who hear a difference are deluding themselves, the placebo effect. But were we to use db but other than the same/different technique and people consistently choose the same component, would we not conclude that they are not delusional? This would test another hypothesis that some can hear better.

I am probably like most subjectivists, as I really do not care what the outcomes of db testing might be. I buy components that I can afford and that satisfy my ears as realistic. Certainly some products satisfy the ears of more people, and sometimes these are not the positively reviewed or heavily advertised products. Again it strikes me, at least, that this should not happen in the world that the objectivists see. They see the world as full of greedy charlatans who use advertising to sell expensive items which are no better than much cheaper ones.

Since my occupation is as a professor and scientist, some among the advocates of double blind might question my commitment to science. My experience with same/different double blind experiments suggest to me a flawed methodology. A double blind multiple component design, especially with a hypothesis that some people are better able to hear a difference, would be more pleasing to me, but even here, I do not think anyone would buy on the basis of such experiments.

To use Atkinson’s phrase, I am generally happy and don’t care if the objectivists think I am right. I suspect they have to have all of us say they are right before they can be happy. Well tough luck, guys. I cannot imagine anything more boring than consistent findings of no difference among wires and components, when I know that to be untrue. Oh, and I have ordered additional Intelligent Chips. My, I am a delusional fool!
tbg
Tbg: If these tests didn't yield positive results, they'd be useless for research. Just because they don't yield positive results when you want them to doesn't make them invalid. A good example of a mix of positive and negative tests is the ABX cable tests that Stereo Review did more than 20 years ago. Of the 6 comparisons they did, 5 had positive results; only 1 was negative. (The one negative, however, used similar cables and had subjects listen to music rather than noise. In most of the other 5 cases, the measured differences were much greater; in one, they listened to noise rather than music--it's easier to hear level and frequency differences with full-spectrum noise than with music.)

I presumed you knew statistics. 15 out of 20 is the 95% confidence level, which means that we can be 95% sure that the listener really heard a difference, and wasn't just guessing lucky. The 95% threshold is a reasonable one in this case.

I suspect the tests you did involved multiple listeners listening at the same time. It's better to use one subject at a time, and to let the subject control the switching. But the Stereo Review tests used multiple listeners at once, and got plenty of positive results. Subjectivists often object that ABX tests use quick switching between components, but there's solid research showing that this approach actually works better--it's easier to hear differences when you can switch immediately between the two. I know subjectivist audiophiles consider that heresy, but the research is pretty clear.

Some manufacturers use DBTs, others don't. It makes no sense for components where differences are undeniable (microphones, turntables, cartridges, and speakers are good examples). As for "voicing" of amps and cables, people who claim to do that without DBTs are either fooling themselves or trying to fool you.

Almost nobody has a preconceived notion that things sound the same. Many objectivists used to be subjectivists till they started looking into things, and perhaps did some testing of their own.

As for reviews, a high-end magazine that used DBTs couldn't survive. Advertisers would pull out, and readers would revolt. Better to give the people what they want.
Double blind tests, statistcal analysis...it all seems ridiculous and out of place in this hobby. Might as well do double blind tests and statistical analysis to determine what wine, art, automobiles, cheese, homes, or golf clubs to buy.

Don't we all agree that equipment is purposely voiced by the manufacturer...even if the goal of the voicing is to provide the gear with no sonic signature? That all equipment sounds somewhat different individually, and within each system?

Are we really endeavoring to purchase Stepford Gear, void of any personality. Just the facts, Ma'am.

Really?

This discussion leaves me cold, and frankly drains my interest in the hobby.

I want to enjoy music in my home. I don't believe I can reproduce the live event. I don't believe I can reproduce the sound the mixing engineer heard in the recording studio. I don't care about these things.

I care about closing my eyes and getting lost in the notes. I care about tapping my toes to the rhythm.

No equipment purchase based on a double blind test or a statistical analysis is going to provide that, IMO.

Pabelson, I must admit that I had not known of the Stereo Review's db tests. Out of curiosity I will have to look them up. Are there others?

I teach statistics. Apart from making judgments about the population from a random sample, the concept of a confidence interval has no meaning. We never can make the conclusion, "...that the listener really heard a difference, and wasn't just guessing lucky." With a random sample of sufficient size, you can get a confidence level of .05 which might be that your experimental group's mean response was right 15 out of 20 times. This is why I ask about this number in the absence of a random sample. 15 out of 20 may impress you, but it has no basis in statistics.

I also do not understand the notion that db testing is unneeded for, "components where differences are undeniable." Undeniable by whom?

I grow less convinced that db testing has any potential for sheading light in the evaluation of stereo equipment.

Tvad, were good db testing procedures, I would think we would have to assess whether some were better evaluators than others. As I said earlier, I still think review magazines would be boring and that most audiophiles would ignor the results, if any were positive.
Jeez, sorry for my out-of-place post. I don't know what I thought I read to initiate that response.
Tvad, I find your last post preposterous. You state that you only care about closing your eyes and getting lost in the notes and about tapping your toes to the rhythm. If that's what our hobby is about then anyone with an iPod on the subway is an audiophile. I have a friend who regularly gets down like that with his Bose Wave player. I even suspect the people in the deeply tinted window SUV with the fancy wheels that was absolutely booming "urban youth music" were lost in the music and tapping their toes. I should have rolled down my window and said hello to my audiophile brothers.

Your espousal of unfettered radical subjectivism is precisely where a large part of our hobby has gone wrong. By dismissing any pretense of fidelity to the source material you have made all systems effectively equal because someone somewhere will think any system sounds great. Beyond what makes someone feel good there actually are objective standards for judging whether a piece of equipment faithfully reproduces an input signal. We can argue about exactly what these standards are, but it would be foolish to ignore them.

BTW, if getting lost/toe tapping is a high priority, a bottle of good Scotch is a more effective system upgrade than any cable change.