No Bi-Amp but tubes for Maggies -- can it be done?

I own the Magnepan 3.6 and have run them with the Atmasphere MA-1 mk2 with and without a Zero autotransformer; the Atmasphere MA-2 mk2 with and without the Zero autotransformer, and the Wolcott Presence 220 with and without the wideband transformer.

The Atmasphere MA-1 or 2 sound remarkably similar when used without the autotransformer in that there is quite a bit of midrange bloom with a slightly softened bass, treble and microdynamics. Harmonic richness is aplenty. I suspect that the output impedance of the Atmasphere causes a shift in the frequency response of the speaker that emphasizes the midrange.

With either the MA-1 or 2 amplifier, the insertion of the Paul speltz Zero autotransfomer will yield a very balanced, detailed and dynamic sound spectrum that retains the harmonic infrastructure that the Atmasphere is so known for, yet without the midrange emphasis. There is a liquid flow to the music spectrum, especially noticeable through the midrange, that will arrest one with how real it sounds. It encompasses a musicality that eludes the Wolcotts as well as all other amplifiers that I have tried on the 3.6s. It is in this configuration that one discovers the true meaning of "grainless". Even very good amplifiers such the Pass series exudes an ever so slightly strident flavor to the music that detracts from the musicality. Almost too squeaky clean I would say.

The Wolcotts are also excellent amplifiers. They sound very tight, dynamic and also clean. Frequency spectrum is full and extended. The sound on the Maggies was essentially the same with, or without the wideband transformer (this wideband feature is primarily for electrostatic speakers such as the Soundlabs). Although I liked the Wolcott, it never made an impression on me that the Atsmaphere did. I think it lacks a bit of harmonic richness (not bloom in this case)that the Atmasphere has in exactly the right amount. The Wolcott sounds like it is almost too much in control of things. It just does not let the music flow quite like the Atmaspheres do.

I could live happily with either, but I prefer the OTL. I do not play music loud so, things may be different if I let'em rip. I did notice that turning up the volume seem to cause the Atmasphere to struggle while the Wolcotts became ever more comfortable and, more dynamic. But, this is a moot point for me becuase I don't play it loud.

Tireguy - Would it have helped if he hyphenated the phrase "tweeter-eater"? Maybe a pictograph would be more helpful.

Tweeter-eater, as in "Peter, Peter Pumpkin-eater..." I'm a bit of a meat-eater, myself. (Carnivore...get it?)

Holy crap, (or should that be hyphenated as well?) you're quite the sensitive one. For the record, Greenman is the party who was misunderstood.

And yes, you are digging yourself deeper. Luckily, you can handle it though, right? ;)

On a positive note, I now know, definitively, whose advice to ignore.

As you said "...there's always something new to learn." Might I suggest that you take your own advice and learn when to keep your proverbial mouth shut?

You were wrong. You're still wrong. Trouble is, you're too prideful to admit it.

"You LOSE! You get NOTHING! Good day, sir!" - Willy Wonka

The only thing left to do is set the Everlasting Gobstopper on Mr. Wonka's desk and the Chocolate Factory will be yours.

Just apologize and be done with it.

BTW - Sorry, Greenman for stepping in the middle of your post.

Nice post Nealhead, your experience far exceeds mine. I enjoyed the comparison with the Wolcotts which I've never had the chance to audition.

I'm running 2 Counterpoint NP100s in monobloc biwiring MG IIBs (yeah, yeah, ancient equipment).
Female vocals can sound very good depending on recording (just
happen to have 2 Aboslute Sound-listed reference CDs). My CD front end
Nakamichi OMS 7 is on its last legs however.

Here's my two-penneth on 3.6R's and tubes, for what it's worth.

I bought my 3.6R's in October last year and have tried a few different amps, both tube and SS.

If you search old posts for Magnepan you'll see a few of mine, asking for help and advice and basically venting quite a bit of frustration along the way.

I'm still not happy with amps for these speakers, but I have a better understanding of what is required, through several months of trial and error.

First of all, the most important consideration when amping the 3.6's is room size.
If you have a larger than normal room, these speakers are capable of opening up and creating a huge soundstage (width), given powerful amps, particularly in the area of current delivery. Given power, the Maggies just dissapear in a large room and you feel the full scale of the music.

In a smaller room, you are just not going to recreate that scale, regardless of the power, and so you can look for a more sensibly rated amp.

I suspect that a lot of Maggie 3.6 owners have never really heard what these speakers are capable of producing in terms of soundstage, given the dimension constraints of the average listening space.

Tubes in my opinion are the only way to go with these speakers, if you can afford to buy adequately powered tube amps that is.

I've moved my speakers between two different listening rooms, one is 14X22, the other, my prefered room, is 45X28'
In the smaller room, a pair of 200 w/channel Cary V12i Monoblocks work great. Given the room constraints, you never really feel that you are missing out on scale, and the vocals, brass instruments, piano...it all just sounds so natural and pure. In this smaller room, the amp isn't being driven too hard, and everything sounds natural and in proportion.

Using the same amps in the larger space is a different matter. On smaller scale music, say an accoustic trio, or something along those lines, you still have that same 'musical rightness' that tubes deliver. But on larger scale music, say big band or classical, you start to feel that something is missing. I have my speakers about 14' apart along the 45' wall, and the sound doesn't open up much beyond the speaker edges when I use the 200w tube monoblocks.

When I add a solid state, with good current delivery, then the soundstage widens and the whole picture changes. However, with the SS amps that I've tried so far, I just can't get the same sense of 'musicality' as I can with tubes.

So, I think that in a larger room, the goal is still tubes, but they must be in the 400+ watt region, based on what I've heard so far.

In a smaller room, a good quality 200 w tube amp should work great, but I wouldn't go much lower than that.

The amps I've tried, with a quick run down:

Belles Integrated - great amp, good current delivery, just too bright and forward.
McIntosh 252 - big heavy powerful amp, started to sound pretty good until the cutouts kicked in at around 80db and the amps just shut down!
McIntosh 6500 Integrated - actually played louder than the more powerful 252 without shutting down, but forget it!...so 'colored' and completely lacking in transparancy. I read other posts where people claim the 6500 and bigger 6900 sound great with Maggies, well, each to their own.
Cary V12i Mono's - great sounding in a smaller room, just not quite up to the larger room.
Perreaux 2150b - I found one of these by accident at a bargain price, and it sounds pretty darn good. So much so that I bought a bigger 3150b but unfortunatelt that has a fault on it. The Perreux really opens up the soundtage on the 3.6, it's almost right but just lacks the tonal quality and liquidity of tubes.
CJ CAV 50 (45 watt tube integrated)...all the glory of tubes, just not enough watts).

Anyway, that's my story so far!....I'm going to dump off all of my amps and try to find something like a Manley 440 or a VTL 750.

I would recommend that anyone at least tries tubes with Maggies.
I usually get a bunch of flack when I post here, so I'm going off to find my safety hat, anyway, it's just my opinion.

Rooze