how much of a difference should equipment make?


I spent the last few months looking for a good sounding 2 channel setup and this is what I ended up with:

McIntosh C50 Preamp
McIntosh MC275 Amp (VI)
SF Cremona M
Audioquest King Cobra XLR
Audioquest Carbon USB
Audioquest Rockefeller SW

Let me just get this out of the way and say it up front.. While the speakers (and their placement in my room) seemed to make a huge difference, the amp, preamp, and cables do not seem to make any discernable difference to me or my wife.

I feel like I have purchased the C50/MC275 due to a combination of the integrated DAC, aesthetics, heritage, level of support, and resale value.

We compared several options at home and in high end audio shops.. For example, in one store, I got to listen to the Cremona M's through a pair of MC1.2kw+C2300+AyreQB9 and then immediately following that, the C50 paired with a single MC275. I really wanted to hear a difference, but nothing. In the same store, I was also able to listen to a Music Fidelity M6 and luxman 550AX connected to the same speakers.

I brought home a demo of a luxman 550AX integrated and an MA6600 McIntosh integrated and did several days of A/B testing with the Cremona M's and we could not detect a difference at all. I tried to make sure that decibel levels were matched by playing a test tone and using an SPL meter.

I am using Jriver with ASIO with a variety of music off of hdtracks.. the music is being sent to the DAC in the C50 via audioquest carbon USB cable in bit perfect asynchronous mode.

I checked the MC275 manual and McIntosh recommends 12AWG wire. When I had a pair of audioquest type 4 connected (which was only 16 AWG), we did detect a small improvement when moving to the 12 gauge Rockeller wires. I did not test any cheaper speaker wire. This was the only time that I heard something other than the speakers make an audible difference.

I was also able to compare a peachtree iDAC and Ayre DAC at my home and I did not detect much (if any) difference between the DAC built in to the C50. I do have the latest firmware.

I heard huge differences when cross shopping speakers and doing A/B tests in stores.. for example, B&W 802D seemed to have much more 'oomph' on the low end, but lacked some midrange and high vocal clarity. It felt a bit like voices were not 'tight' compared to the Sonus Faber line. I listened to a pair of SF Elipsa and they sounded similar to the Cremona M but a bit more 'full'. As if the depth of the sound stage increased and also the bass had a bit more impact.

Although I do not hear any difference in preamp/amp/cabling, it does not mean that a difference does not exist. I am not trying to insult anyone here.. it may just be that the combinations of equipment that I have tried are still somehow 'lacking'.

My questions are as follows....:

1) Is it normal to not hear much (or any??) difference when changing out preamps or amps assuming the components in question are within similar specs?

2) Has anyone else purchased relatively expensive amp/preamp combinations even when you believe the components are not making a difference in the sound quality?

3) Placement and angle of my speakers in my room make almost as much of a difference as the brand and model of the speaker - at least to me. Anyone else have this experience?

4) What am I doing wrong that is leading to not hearing a difference?

I do not believe my ears are at fault.. My wife and friends were with me throughout most of my testing and they came to the same conclusions.

In any event, my setup at home sounds great to me and rivals (again, to my ear) most everything I have heard in audio stores.

Thanks,
ecsrun
"It depends on where you are coming from and where you are going. "

THat's a good answer!
When you go from a damping factor of up to 500 and compare that to an amp with 1000 or more, you're talking about audible extension of another full octave on the bottom end. That's no subtle difference. That goes for top end rise times also. Going from above 2u sec to below is easily recognizable, given all other performance parameters are of a high standard. As the OP's question refers to similar specs, it stands to reason differences will be subtle at best.
When you go from a damping factor of up to 500 and compare that to an amp with 1000 or more, you're talking about audible extension of another full octave on the bottom end. That's no subtle difference.
Peter, I would respectfully disagree with that. A damping factor of 500 is equivalent to an output impedance of:

(8 ohms)/500 = 0.016 ohms.

The resistances of the speaker cables and the internal wiring of the speakers, and the resistance(s) of the inductor(s) in the crossover networks, will add up to considerably more than that in almost all cases, limiting the effective damping factor that both amplifiers can provide to far less than 500.

Also, there is no direct relationship between damping factor and bottom octave extension.

If an amplifier having a damping factor of 1000 sounds different than one having a damping factor of 500, and it often will, the reason is not the difference in damping factor. Although the differences in sonics and the differences in damping factor may have some degree of commonality in their causes.

Regards,
-- Al
Okay Al, thank you. I have amps with damping factors of 150, 400, 500, 700, and 1000. My understanding is that there is a direct correlation with this number to bottom end control. My experience is that the higher the number, the sharper, more articulate the bass response is. The amps I have with df 0f 1000 do indeed produce discernible notes a full octave lower than the others. The others have the extension alright, but notes are not articulately discernible. Can you please elaborate a little more on this? Or just cut to the quick and tell me it's all in my head.
I know what Al is saying is correct theoretically from what I read, and I think I understand whybut I have to wonder sometimes also.

I do not have as many data points as Csontos, but I have noted a clear correlation between extreme differences in damping factor of amps I have used and major differences in sound along the lines Csontos describes (better dynamics and articulation of details overall though I am not sure that better low end extension is necessarily part of what I hear) with my larger OHM Walsh (wave bending) speakers in particular, which have a reputation of benefiting from high damping perhaps more so than many conventional dynamic box designs.

I think I have even noticed something similar with my smaller Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkii monitors.

In my case I'm talking about going from a 120w/ch (Class A or A/B, not sure) amp with <50 damping (Musical Fidelity A3CR) to 500 w/ch and 1000 damping (BelCanto Ref1000m). Of course, the whole amp design did change, so big difference there! Lots of possible factors to consider. I sought an amp with 50 damping minimum, but had no concerns about going higher in that the effects would only be in the direction desired, to whatever extent. The first time I listened after changing the amp, the difference is sound was one of the biggest and clearest (for the better) I have ever heard with any system component change. It was a total sonic transformation that I would have to attribute to much better accuracy and retrieval of detail, whatever the technical reason. I'm sure increased damping is at least part of the reason, but I also suspect that damping factor of 1000 may be more of an insurance policy than anything else.

I believe that most top performing systems have some sort of similar over the top technological insurance policy or policies in play as a precaution just to make sure no corners are inadvertently cut. 500 w/ch and 1000 damping that went with it were two of mine.