Wow, thanks so much Steve. That's some awesome stuff. Not sure why some are so adamant to keep on trying to say R2R is always better etc... Guys, there are some great R2R DAC's. MSB as has been mentioned as well as what may or may not be the best DAC in teh world, the Trinity DAC are R2R types. Total DAC too if I recall correctly. I was at Audio Doctor's and heard the Aqua Formula I believe it was with the Paradigm 9H's and didn't like what I heard. I know that speaker and it's just not my cup of tea, but it really was the worst I've ever heard them. Dave said it was the Aqua that wasn't burned in properly. That may have been the case, but the highs were a total wreck and I don't think burn in was the problem, but I may be wrong. I got this off the DaVinci site on the Mk2 that Richfield Hunter and Matt both own and LOVE. Now we’ve decided to push the boundaries once again with Da Vinci MKII’s 32/768 kHz PCM resistor ladder DAC engine. And history will repeat itself. Da Vinci MKII’s second decoding engine is a pure Delta-Sigma DAC capable of decoding DSD signals up to DSD256.
What does this mean? They use both? Either way you can find great DAC's using a lot of different tech and most can sound very very good. Some not so much, lol. |
My DSD is causing hick ups again. I'm going to have to contact Bricasti Monday and see if they can help. I tried connecting back to just the router and although everything works the sound is just not nearly as good.
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+1 Charles. And Steve, thanks for the very informative and excellent post!
Regards,
-- Al
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Hi SteveN,
I appreciate your explanation of the specific differences between R2R architecture and delta sigma. Gdhal’s comments just didn’t correlate with my actual listening experiences of many DACs of both type of designs. Based on hype I had the expectation that R2R May be inherently the superior choice for sound quality but that hasn’t been supported by real world direct listening comparisons.
I completely agree with other posters here that you simply can’t make blanket statements. It truly is a matter fully dependant on overall implementation process unless one chooses to be dogmatic and stubborn in their stance. Excellent sound quality can be achieved with either approach. Delta sigma can sound sublime.
Charles |
In the case of DACs, it’s my understanding that delta-sigma is "lossy" (i.e. all of the source PCM music just isn’t converted and played back) whereas an RxR DAC is "lossless", so all of the music is played. And if that is true, it becomes hard to imagine how delta-sigma could possibly ever sound better, regardless of how it is used or any other factor for that matter. Not true. I think you are maybe confusing this with lossy formats. You can think of the Delta-Sigma as an engine that creates the R2R function repetitively. Instead of having passive banks of resistors to create different voltage levels, it uses a single engine that iterates to create these dynamically. Delta-Sigma can definitely sound better than R2R, particularly older R2R chips. Newer Delta-Sigma chips not only support 24/192, they have excellent measurements which include very low distortion and noise as well as higher S/N ratio. They tend to reveal more detail at high frequencies too. The older R2R chips are often implemented without any digital filter, so this solves this issue, but it does not solve the high-frequency detail problem. The thing that sets the Delta-Sigma apart from the R2R is usually the digital filter implementation. If this is executed well, the Delta-Sigma can beat the R2R, depending on implementation and particularly power delivery to the chip. This is one down-side to R2R discrete implementations. They tend to require much more board space than the Delta-Sigma, so this makes it more difficult to get di/dt power to the devices involved. A second down-side to R2R discrete implementations is the tolerance of the resistors and their accuracy. The Delta-Sigma only needs one or two circuits to be very accurate. The discrete R2R needs hundreds of individual resistors to be extremely accurate. A third down side to discrete R2R implementations is the speed at which they can process new words. Because of the distributed nature of the resistor networks and the many drivers needed, it is more difficult to get a really fast response from these circuits, like you would with an single integrated circuit. Steve N. Empirical Audio
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I think you don’t know what your talking about. Delta sigma beat discrete how could that be if information is missing? |
In the case of Grateful Dead, the actual source music is distributed as flac files because this is "lossless" compression technology. Whereas so much other music distributed is mp3, mqa or some other compression/lossy schema.
In the case of DACs, it’s my understanding that delta-sigma is "lossy" (i.e. all of the source PCM music just isn’t converted and played back) whereas an RxR DAC is "lossless", so all of the music is played. And if that is true, it becomes hard to imagine how delta-sigma could possibly ever sound better, regardless of how it is used or any other factor for that matter.
So in my mind, if in fact delta-sigma is "lossy" and does not play *all* of the music, it is automatically disqualified as even being a contender for what this thread is mean to address, Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD.
EDIT:
So as silly as it seems, the essence of what I'm stating is that even *if* delta-sigma does sounds better in any particular implementation, who cares, if all of the music isn't being played? |
I agree with CTSooner. And I said the same thing the last time this was brought up. I don’t believe that a certain type of chip is required to make good sound. It’s all in the implementation of that chip. That said, if an R2R is properly implemented it will typically make great sound. But I have heard good non R2R beat meh R2R dacs. It’s how you use it, not just what parts are installed. |
My Bricasti delta sigma beat the pants off the total dac’s discrete d/a converter chips. |
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George, why in the world would you make such a statement? There are many DAC's of all designs that sound outstanding. I've owned both types and like them. There are plenty of great designs right now from many manufacturer's. |
mikelavigne
MSB Select II is on another level to my ears. and i’m not alone with that conclusion. what i do directly compare the Select II to is my vinyl and RTR tape, as well as other recent digital units in my system. Hi Mike, totally with you. Many many months ago I tried to point the way here, for what the title of this thread is, for the "best dac for Redbook" (which is pcm) replay, you need to go to properly implemented R2R Multibit based dacs, not Delta Sigma based ones as ESS ect. But I got but I got castigated for saying this by some, so I gave up. I wish you all the luck in the world, trying to get them to turn around so they see the forest through the trees.. Cheers George |
I got my Synchro Mesh sent out to me within a day or two. I also really liked it, but need to sell it as I am no longer in need with my system changes. I guess sometimes things happen. Sorry Ozzy. |
I got my Synchro Mesh sent out to me within a day or two. I also really liked it, but need to sell it as I am no longer in need with my system changes. I guess sometimes things happen. Sorry Ozzy. |
Steve,
Thanks for the info and looking forward on hearing in my system.
Wig |
Mike I was not trying to start a fight with you, there is no denying that an MSB Select, a DCS stack and a few others are state of the art in digital, we have the same opinion as Matt does that the Davinci is a very special dac, and that it does certain things that are just spooky, and the dac is very musical, and well balanced yet it still has excellent resolution.
The Davinci deserves to be ranked amoung the very best digital front ends, because it is. The only issue is the rarity of the dac. LH Labs is making most of their money these days as being the sole supplier for Tesla automobiles on board entertainment systems. Larry is working on a number of interesting new products as well.
We just got in the Aqua Forumla and we know you really thought highly of that dac, how many hours did yours take before it came alive? Did you use HQ player with the Formula.
Are you using the Artenisia racks now did you compare them to the Stillpoints?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Some sobering thoughts and measurements..... Not so sobering IME. I have an RPi and an even better hat board, the Allo Digione. I also have a Digi Pro board. I have made jitter measurements on all of them. The Digione is quite good for $100, but I still cannot get 176.4kHz or 192kHz files to play through my DAC on either board. I have been messing with it for a week, including modding both the RPi and the HAT boards. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
No party crashing interpreted Mike. But if you bring your Select II you can crash my party anytime!! ;)
Al has been to my house several times. I look forward to him bringing the newest latest greatest SGM to compare to the Baetis and MP. Should be super fun!!! Will report when that happens.
I will figure out a way eventually to hear a Select II in my room. I won’t buy without hearing it in my system.
Remember that my opinions (and Mike’s, and CTSooner’s and Wison’s, etc) are just that, opinions. I am not the Ear of Olympus upon which all decisions shall be based. I’m just a shmo with a good ear and some disposable income to spend on this stuff. :) |
I'm assuming that I'll be using both in/outputs on the SM going into my Marantz Digital in/outputs? Transport output connects to the Synchro-Mesh input Synchro-Mesh output connects to DAC input Steve N. Empirical Audio |
any of your customers use this between the PS Audio Directstream DAC and the PS Memory Player transport? Good results?
Most that have PSAudio DS are using HDMI I2S from my Off-Ramp 5. They can also use my Interchange Ethernet renderer. Same outputs. If you wanted to try the Synchro-Mesh using my coax cable, it would likely outperform even the I2S, but this depends on the S/PDIF path inside the DAC. The signal will have lower jitter, but the path may make it a lot worse. 30-day money-back if you want to try it. I may do a Synchro-Mesh in the future with I2S on HDMI, but other things are more important now. I can tell you without hesitation that the Interchange with HDMI I2S to your DAC will be hands-down the best solution, best SQ. It blows-away any USB, even my own. It's identical to the Off-Ramp on the webpage, but has Ethernet input instead of USB. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
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Mike,
How competitive did you find the Aqua Formula with other DAC's in its price range? I currently have an older MSB Platinum III and am looking for a new DAC up to ~$15K and I have read good things about the Aqua.
I might also consider a used MSB DAC V as I do like the MSB "house sound".
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i never claimed i’ve directly compared these products. who gets a chance to do that? have you done that? not sure i want to go back and forth with a dealer in any case. i’ve heard the MP and Dv but not necessarily the most recent versions. i have heard enough of the considered state of digital art that i do have a feel for what is out there, and do think (as i said....just my 2 cents, YMMV and all that stuff) that the MSB Select II is on another level to my ears. and i’m not alone with that conclusion. what i do directly compare the Select II to is my vinyl and RTR tape, as well as other recent digital units in my system. and I spent over 2 years and multiple audio shows listening to the MSB Select II in those shows and then trying to find a less expensive alternative that could do what it did. I could not, so I pulled the trigger. i’m just a guy with an opinion. and a system context all can see where it’s formed. i don’t care what Matt ends up with (i’m not a dealer), but if he is getting into $100k list price range digital investments, then the MSB becomes an alternative he should consider. Matt has also asked me multiple times about an in home demo of the Select II, so it's not like i'm crashing the party here. |
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Mike why if you havnen't heard the Davinci MK II compared to the MSB would you make such a statement and at $90k vs a $35k Dac that kind of puts the Dac at a crazy different price range.
Almost no one has a MK II as Larry HO the owner of LH Labs has not had the time to over see all the units coming in for the upgrade, also they moved to a new factory, and retweeked the boards on the MK II is some of the reasons for the delays.
There are only a handful of the current dual dacs out in the market.
We had the Dual Dac MK 1 our new MK II is finally going to be shipping. The Dual Dac especially the MK II is one of the most extraordinary pieces of digital we have ever heard, and that includes the DCS.
As per the Memory Player vs the Baetis vs the SGM that would be an intereting thing, we took our Baetis to a guy in Boston with Rockports and did a quick comparison to the MP vs the Baetis it wasn't conclusive but the Baetsis did seem to sound as good for a lot less.
As per a major rack upgrade, I am a big believer that an uber rack will take Matts system to the next level.
We are looking at the Artensias, the Modulum and the Rogoz as all possible contenders, never loved the HRS and the SRA stuff is also crazy expensive. Still love the Stillpoints just don't know if any of these newer companies products are better or are more cost effective.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Steve,
I'm assuming that I'll be using both in/outputs on the SM going into my Marantz Digital in/outputs?
Thanks,
Wig |
Hi Steve,
Stupid question: any of your customers use this between the PS Audio Directstream DAC and the PS Memory Player transport? Good results? |
Would my Modwright Marantz SA 8005 have to be sent in or is this a plug-play mod? Curious if you have done any jitter samples on this unit but imagine it’s similar to the Oppo?
No, this is an add-on device that inserts in the S/PDIF cable. a reasonable cable going in and a reference cable going out is what I recommend. I offer an excellent reference cable. I don’t have any jitter measurements on the Marantz. Almost no Transports have the 20psec of jitter that you get with the Synchro-Mesh. I may not even want a Dac if this will make it even better... Any installed pics of this unit? Curious on how it’s connected. Folks with NOS DACs say that the Synchro-Mesh (SM) really wakes them up and improves the dynamics, imaging and detail. I don’t have installed pics, but it’s really simple: 1) DC power inlet that can be from the included wall-wart or an upgrade LPS. 2) S/PDIF coax on BNC or RCA or Toslink inputs 3) S/DIF coax on BNC or RCA or Toslink outputs All you need is a cheaper coax cable, like Blue-jeans connected from transport to SM and a reference coax cable from the SM to your DAC. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve,
Would my Modwright Marantz SA 8005 have to be sent in or is this a plug-play mod? Curious if you have done any jitter samples on this unit but imagine it's similar to the Oppo?
I may not even want a Dac if this will make it even better... Any installed pics of this unit? Curious on how it's connected.
I'm an ACircle member also...
Thanks
Wig |
If you are planning to spin CD's, first reduce the jitter from the CD transport, then think about a new DAC. Either CD player as a transport is fine, but you can minimize the jitter by adding a Synchro-Mesh reclocker ($599.00) and a reference S/PDIF coax cable ($499). LPS upgrade also available. Here is a typical transport jitter: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0 Much higher than you would expect it to be. BTW, I also have a demo Overdrive SX DAC that might be available soon. It could be demoed right away with a refundable deposit. At least look at the top DACs reviewed by audiostream. "best bits" Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Wig your Marantz would not be my choice for transport if used with dacs. I would suggest a PS Audio Memory Player as it is way more transparent than your cd player. I bet you would have liked those dacs more if you had this transport.
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Guys,
I'm considering a Dac again just for Redbook only utilizing my Modwright Marantz SA 8005 Tube CD Player; tried a Berkeley and a Lampizator level 4 with my Modwright Sony 5400 but found them lacking...
Lots of talk about the Yiggy, why and what would you recommend?
Thanks,
Wig |
Matt, the other thing that folks never seem to talk about (other than HRS) that I know of, is what type of case are you trying to use the device with. Are the cases solid or are they 'sheets of metal'? There are differences if I recall correctly.
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Matt, as far as the ’look’ of the Artesania; if you observe pictures of gear on it, it’s the gear itself that jumps out, not the rack. since there are no shelves to hide the gear, only the skeleton of the ’functional structure’. and whether you choose light grey, dark grey, or black as a rack frame color will change how it looks next your wall in room. and with free air flow around your gear, your gear is happier thermodynamically. i have no dog in the fight, since i don’t own Artesania or plan to buy it. only that take the $30k you don’t spend on those other crazy expensive racks, and upgrade that DaV-MP combo to the MSB Select II-SGM. as good as your reference is, there is another step beyond (just my 2 cents, YMMV, and all that stuff). and, of course, both the MSB Select II and the SGM are products created to be constantly upgraded and take the customers with them on that path. i can’t personally hook you up with an MSB Select II in room demo, but i have a room here for you to stay in should you want to visit and hear it for yourself here in the barn (compared directly to vinyl and tape). and connect with a local MSB dealer (not sure who has a Select II as a demo; I know that ’Mike’ in SW Florida just got a Select II as a demo the same spec as mine--full tilt--he is going nuts over it). |
Mike - thanks for the hookup. I’m going to do a tad more research to decide if I’m going to keep my Adona and load up on footers (the Trinia look intriguing and Albert is currently doing a head to head with the StillPoint 5’s that shoul yield interesting results), or go for a new rack. I’d also love to get that MSB DAC of yours with dual power supplies Into my room for a test drive. 😇
That Artesania looks cool, but it’s not for me looks wise. I know that’s a stupid reason, but I will be looking at it every day and need to find it attractive.....
Dave - The Modulum looks interesting. But I have a hard time buying into the “absorb the bad vibes and keep the good vibes” concept.
The Roguz looks intriguing as well, but standard shelf sizing is too wide and a triple wide won’t fit between my speakers.
If I go cost affective, the Star Sound Rhythm is the no brainer option. If I go top tier there are many options. Opinions help. But all of these racks have an element of science and an element of voodoo. Oy!!!
All of them say they base it on science and physics and computer modeling; and I believe that. It’s 99 different ways to accomplish the same thing. The issue isn’t if any of it works, the issue is if it makes the gear sound better and musical or worse and dead. And what racks make what gear sound better or worse. And since it’s impractical or impossible to audition anything, the only way to decide is research.
I just don’t like BS and hand waving. Everyone’s rack design is better then every else’s. Wood is better because it doesn’t kill the music . Steel is better because it isolates. Laminated wood/rubber/granite is best because it absorbs more evenly. Points are better; bearings are better; suspension is better; absorption is better; diffusion is better. Try to stop vibration from getting in, try to absorb vibration going out. No way to compare. No way to decide! I may just keep my current rack for now and upgrade isolation footers as Mike suggested.
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The MP seems to be the one to beat right now. I'm having Sam come over with the one wiht the built in DAC to compare it to my Mac mini that Steve built and used as his show back up along with my Ayre QX5 DAC that replaced Steve's OSDE/SE. If ti beats it, I"m all in. I have a feeling, based on Matt and another close friend, that it will beat it with no problem.
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The MP seems to be the one to beat right now. I'm having Sam come over with the one wiht the built in DAC to compare it to my Mac mini that Steve built and used as his show back up along with my Ayre QX5 DAC that replaced Steve's OSDE/SE. If ti beats it, I"m all in. I have a feeling, based on Matt and another close friend, that it will beat it with no problem. |
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Mike L. - email sent.
Dave - text to be sent tomorrow. Let’s hook up and compare those usb cables. And maybe the Baetis to the MP64. 👍🏻 |
Modulum is using a very novel idea of using a moving damper that is designed to flex and absorb energy the Tenor guys are raving over them.
Dave Lalin
Audio Doctor NJ |
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check out Artesania. http://www.artesaniaaudio.com/ these racks are very impressive. do a little research on this rack system. other racks might look a bit more like furniture; Artesania is all business. the Artesania decouples on a level beyond those higher priced racks. if I was not buying a 520 pound turntable, and did not already own active isolation, I would absolutely own Artesania. I would never consider dropping $20k-$40k on racks that I could never sell. you better want to be buried with an expensive rack because you will own it forever. not that they don’t work, but how long will they be relevant and current tech? i use footers made in Korea called ’Hardpoint Trinia’. they ’float’ and i’m very impressed by their performance in my system, i have 5 sets of them. they are not cheap, but when compared to expensive racks they become cheap relatively. under my 3 box MSB Select II these footers are phenomenal. they work perfect with my Adona rack or directly on a hard floor. and using a modestly priced Adona and footers means I can consider changing if better tech comes along and it's all sellable and shippable without losing an arm and a leg. |
Mike - I agree the biggest issue is the cost of the HRS/Critical Mass racks. I have no doubt they offer excellent results but $35-50k for a rack!!!! Really?!?
I looked into active for a while as well. Do you use that? And on what?
Hey Mr. Audio Doctor!! The StillPoints rack isn’t the right size for me. I need 3 wide 2 tall. So many good racks. So confusing.
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There are a few new racks that are getting some play their is the Modulum from Canada that is cost effective and very pretty. Also the new Rogez from Poland I think is supposed to be a very cool rack.
We were also looking at the Artensia the only issue with them is their size and weight which is kind of a problem for some people.
We are also searching for a new series of racks for the showroom, the issue we have is we need a lot of them. UGH!
Dave
Audio Doctor NJ |
Matt as you know I have a very nice Stillpoints demo rack if you want one.
I still want to bring over the Baetis to do a comparison to the Memory player.
Dave
Audio Doctor NJ |
i use Adona and decoupling footers, or active isolation. the problem with 'uber' racks is the 'sunk' cost, and then they are impossible to sell or ship once you have them. footers have the same or better performance, and are flexible and priced more reasonably. if i was looking for the best rack with decoupling tech, hand s down it would be Artesania only. equal or better in performance but won't break the bank. |
Hi Matt,
I just sent you an email... |
Looking for opinions.....
I’m considering upgrading my rack. I currently have an Adona that is very good. But the top tier is in a different class.
Narrowed down to 3 options:
HRS - VXR rack with M3X platforms
Critical Mass - Olympus V-12
Symposium - Osiris with Copper rails
I have no doubt that all 3 are exceptional. And that all 3 will sound amazing. But a Rack is the one thing that’s essentially impossible to audition. So I need to pick and buy without an audition.
The HRS and Critical Mass are twice as expensive as the Symposium. But I’m not convinced that Symposium is subsequently 1/2 as good. In fact, I’m very impressed by his design and approach. But HRS and Critical Mass have SUCH strong reputations as the best of the best.
All opinions welcome!!! |
Yes, he is! A pal of mine met him for drinks offsite at the last RMAF. Mark is not "people friendly"...Genius always has a flaw somewhere. LoL Before Sam Laufer bought it out, it was called the Nova Physics Memory Player. I was told about him and his genius by a genius audio designer that I know very well.
Glad you finally looked into it. I know I have your email addy, but cant recall if I have your number. I will look see and give you a quick buzz if I find it. |
Hey Wisnon- I remembered someone talked about the Memory Player. I forgot it was you. If Mark Porzilli is the Mark that Sam keeps referring to than yes, and the guy is a freakin genius!! |
Matt, it only took you 2+ years with some reminders along the way. LoL: wisnon 667 posts02-09-2015 2:28pm - Matt,
AL wants the Lumin with ANALOG volume control.
I agree that Devialet with AIR streaming built in is the most "one box" solution out there as it even has power amps at the end. Streamer/Dac/Integrated amp all in one box. Very attractive bling box too.
Matt, what no Laufer teknik MEMORY Player?
http://www.thememoryplayer.net/
AND wisnon667 posts Matt, Cstooner have you guys tried the very affordably priced MemoryPlayer Mini...2500 to 3500 dollars? AND wisnon667 posts 04-14-2017 9:12pm - Yes Matt, Ethernet is also packetized data.
Why not try a Lauferteknik Memory Player? It has a LOT of software innovations and the newly released MP MINI is only $3500 with 2TB of defractionalized SSD memory. The big brothers with built in dacs are over $20K.
I will reach out to the Lampi guys and see if they cant get you a demo GA after Axpona. the Pentodes are not swappable, so little chance of OCD for you. LoL
wisnon667 posts 05-10-2017 1:27pm Also for Matt:
"https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/laufer-teknik-memory-player-64-i-ve-finally-found-what-i-ve-b...; Check it out. and wisnon 667 posts Matt,
Though I have not heard it, the MEMORY PLAYER BY MARK PORZILLI is the only one with proprietary tech.
Its the one that has the potential to be VERY different. Nothing me too about it.
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