Just got back from CES and wanted to post a brief follow-up to the "digital amp" discussion recently.
Again, I didn't hear any digital amps in the class of ARC Reference tube gear, but I was impressed with the Kii Audio speakers that are active and have digital amplification. In fact, they were hooked up to a Kronus turntable and had to go through an ADC conversion and still sounded good.
There's no doubt that many people can be perfectly happy with that sound. However, the Kronus TT setup is so good that it's tough to say if that wasn't carrying the SQ more than anything else.
Genesis had a more than decent sounding digital amp to go with their speakers. Not sure why they don't get more 'pub' from the digital amp fans.
Nevertheless, at the end of the day, I wasn't lusting over anything and was more than happy to get back home to ARC tubes. It's still a night and day proposition to me right now, but I'll keep looking/listening.
The one thing relevant to this thread's "best DAC" theme could be the new LH Labs Vi DAC. I didn't hear it, but it won an award (although those awards are largely meaningless). It did look promising. The option to choose either a SS or tube output stage seemed interesting, but that's assuming they do it right. (Shanling did that at one time with their SACD player, but both options sounded awful.)
As for servers, I can't see how it's possible for someone to like a MacMini over the Antipodes which is clearly the best I've heard, but I guess anything is possible. I think it just shows people have different tastes and it's best not to take advice from forums unless you know that person shares your same preferences. Otherwise, you could be destined for disappointment. |
I know a guy that has the new Chord DAVE, and he sold his ultra expensive CAD CAT Server, because he said the DAVE does not care about the quality of the digital source... He couldn't tell the difference between it or a simple MAC Mini using this DAC, where with his previous DAC, the Server mattered big time.
I trust this guys perception, so am very curious about this new DAC!! If this is indeed the case, Chord has made a serious breakthrough that others will need to play catch up on, or try to, because this DAC can be had at a fraction of the price of the most expensive DAC's, and it supposedly sounds better than them all.
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wisnon, have you heard the Sound Galleries MS? Just curious as to why you feel it will be the best? I'm waiting on hearing the Melco NAS before I buy a NAS. A friend of mine in Japan loves this NAS. Thought I'd throw that in also as this thread now touches nearly every component in some way.
We all hear things differently and that's why it's so important to know who you are speaking with in regards to recommendations. I know that Matt and I have a lot in common in what and how we listen, but we also have many differences. Both of us know what those are too so when we discuss components etc... we each have our own reference. I hear so many absolutes in this and other threads. I'm the same way in my posts. Again, it just reinforces why we need to go listen before purchasing. I purchased my OSDE/SE as well as my Mac Mini (heavily modified by Steve N.) without hearing because I knew I could easily sell them off if I didn't like them. I will probably be selling off that Mac Mini once I get a NAS and server set up in the near future. I will promise you that I will only buy a server that I've had IN my system to know that it works properly when together. I've heard a bunch of the servers listed in this thread and I too have felt that the Aurender sounds better than the Antipodes, but again it could have been system dependent. I don't see Aurender in shops. I forget which one I heard it at, but I wasn't blown away like you have been Steve. I'm just very familiar all the Aurender servers and have heard them in totally different systems and they've always sounded great and that even includes the 100xl I think they call it. I'm still waiting to see what else comes out and at what price points. I have a GREAT server in the Mac Mini with that special power supply Steve built, so I'm not in a hurry.
How many of you guys are seriously in the market for a server and what are you looking at and why? Fits' right in with looking for a top DAC. |
Steve the best server will be the upcoming Sound Galleries Music Server. When you hear the technical details, you will be swayed as I know you love delving into clock quality and power supply, etc. |
Aesthetix does 2X DSD through USB.
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Steve - I had the top of the line Antipodes in my room (one that was well broken in) and I was not impressed in comparison to my sup'd up Mac Mini. It wasn't close, to be honest. And this was using your wonderful ODSE. The Aurender N10 is a petter performer in every perceiveable way (in my system). Sorry.
I'm not sure what other servers you have directly compared it to, but to my ears it's not king of the hill. Or even prince..... |
Hi Matt, I look forward to your impressions of the Aesthetix Romulus Eclipse player, however, their site says 24/192 only, this includes this player, sigh! |
Matt - when are you going to break-down and get the best server on the planet, the Antipodes? This is what I have been using at shows with the Overdrive SE and SX. Nothing touches it IMO. Reviewed recently in Stereophile. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
From what I have heard some of the newer class-D amps are as good or better than the best SS amps, but tubes still win IME. I have custom DC-coupled 805 SE tube monoblocks that even beat the AR stuff. Nothing I have heard comes close to these. The right tubes are essential though. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Resonessence mirus dac is at CES in Vegas this week being used at the High fidelity cables booth
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Thank you mattnhshilp! I'd be curious to know if it sounds calm in the upper midrange and with higher-pitch vocals. |
Guido. Still only heard the Daemon. No others. I was very impressed considering I was listening to a pair of YG Sonja which I typically find overly analytical and not engaging. |
Hi Matt, which class D Rowland amps specifically have you listened to and compared to ?
Saluti, and Happy New Year! Guido |
Guido - I have hard all but the top tier Rowland Class D gear. I think that the Merrill Veritas is better then most of what you mentioned, and a better value then all at only $12k.
Eveyone else has has stepped up to the $20+k range for their gear and Merrill holds solid at $12k. |
Next trip Matt. I just could not make it this time. If I have a business trip to Parsippany this year, I will let you know and we will work it out for sure. I would LOVE to hear your system.
I even had to give up the chance to hear a Goldmund Apologue Mk2 setup during the holidays. Sigh. |
RGS92- I have a DA2 on order. Their new uber DAC. $25k retail. Software based DAC that is supposed to be Emm Labbs all out assault on dac'ness. ill let you all know when it ships.
AudioLabyrnth - now that the holidays have passed I'm going to borrow the Eclipse CD/DAC from Johnny and will report my findings. I've been busy and haven't had time, and I wanted it to have lots of hours on it before I tried it out... I have to check, but I thought it did DSD but just didn't play SACD.
I also recently acquired a new Electrocompaniet EMC-1mk3 SACD player. I have to burn it in and compare it to my current Mac mini and my friends N10.
I also have have a PC based music server inbound that I am dying to compare with the N10!!
never enough time! |
Hi jwm, every dac chip I have ever owned has been from Burr-Brown, however, I believe for $13,000.000 a player should be more than 24/192 for Redbook playback, this has been around for longer than 5 year's, any cheap player does that standard, I love Burr-brown chip's sound, but, I'm wanting to up grade to the new technology, 129 dynamic range sounds sweet to me,and -120dB for distortion is appealing. |
The Romulus is popular because it sounds good. I'll take their Burr Brown Chip any day over a Sabre.
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Any one have feedback on the aesthetix Romulus Eclipse?, a lot of money for a player that has an obsolete dac!, A $900.00 phone will have a Stereo D/A converter from ESS Technology.This converter (SABRE9018AQ2M) debuted at the Consumer Electronics Show in January 2015, and is the world’s most powerful 32-bit converter. It features 129dB dynamic range and -120dB (0.0001 percent) harmonic distortion. |
So where does the EMMLabs DA2 fit in the with the EMM line with the XDS1/V2 cd player? Is the DA2 a new, better DAC than the one in the XDS1? It sounds that way...
I would think a new cd player would be next if this is so.
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Hi Labtec, if you go to CES, try to have a look at class D offerings from
* Rowland: possibly present might be - Daemon superintegrated ($42K), - Continuum S2 integrated ($9.5K). Roy Gregory's review at: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/jeff_rowland_continuum_s2.htm - M925 monos ($58K) - based on NCore NC1200, - M825 stereo (approx $30K - based on NCore NC1200). Marc Michelson's review at:
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/jeff_rowland_model_825.htm - M625 S2 stereo (approx $15K - this one running in class A/B).
* Gato might show its newest integrated amps... I suspect you might enjoy more the one based on the Pascal M2-Pro than the S2-Pro version.
* Bel Canto should have its Black System, which is based on customized versions of the NCore NC1200 designed by Bruno Putzeys (approx $50K).
* On A Higher Note is likely to have once again the Mola Mola... It is a fine NCore NC1200 implementation, but you might find it a little forward for your taste.
* Hopefully, Merrill Audio will have its Veritas monos based on NCore ($12K). My review at: http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm
* Devialet also makes fine class D integrated amps.... I find them a little too peaky for my taste, but my memory is of a 3 years ago, and they are likely to have evolved since then.
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Matt, what class D amps are you talking about?
You said they are better than A/B amps, but what about tubes?
i've been to countless shows (and I'll be at CES next week), so I'd like to check out any class D i may have missed.
I'm all for buying a class D amp if I can find one better than ARC Reference level tubes, but I haven't found any of these digital amps certain people claim "sound like tubes" yet. Actually, none even close to that sound quality to my ears. To me, they seem night and day different.
The closest thing class D I would buy at a certain budget range is the Lyngdorf which keeps everything digital until output and can provide room correction that provides a distinct advantage for many users.
The new Technics with CAT6 input and a LPS sounded promising too, but only the budget model had price commensurate with performance.
Otherwise, I can't recall any from recent shows. If any digital amp should sound good, it would be Mola Mola given the pedigree of the designer. I can't say I was impressed with even their stuff, especially the price (to be fair though, it was limited exposure).
i always keep an open mind...errr...ear
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Hi Matt, I read the pdf file on your burmester 911 mk3 amplifiers, said nothing about class a/b, said a lot about being class A operation. |
Hi Matt- you will be auditioning the new EMM Labs DA2? The DA2 (and the DAC2x) convert PCM to DSD, right?
Is the new Chord DAVE on your radar?
- Josh
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Thank you LabTec, yes you are right... To each his own. I am delighted that you love all your tube and SS amps.
Personally, I do not seek amps that emulate the sound of anything in particular. I seek devices that instantiate the sound signature and musical concept that I have in mind.
Being essentially maintenance-free, not doubling as furnaces, and enjoying a stable performance without tube replacements, are also very desirable characteristics for me.
Today, a pair of Rowland M925 class D monos give me amazing nirvana... To a greater extent than most amps I have ever auditioned. Interestingly, they are highly reliable, are very efficient, and their performance remains stable over time. What more could I wish?!
Tomorrow, I might discover amps that yield an even greater degree of enchantment. M925 might be replaced by some low or moderately biased class A/B amps, or I might still be with some class D device.... Class A and high powered tubed amps are unlikely to make the cut for the reasons mentioned above, but I do not exclude them apriori.
Bottom line is that I follow neither "the road less traveled" nor "the more traveled" one... Fact is that I could not care any less about the number of travellers on a road, and which topology "most people" return to... I only seek that which gives me audible joy, evaluating amps one at a time solely on their own particular merits,while keeping as open a mind as I can to the world around me.
G. |
Labtec - there's room in this world for solid state and tube lovers. We all enjoy our poison from different glasses. Doesn't make one better then the other. |
And the $60+K Roland 925 monoblocks are also not worth considering, just because they are class D. Or his new Daemon integrated, just because it's class D; even though both have won best in show awards and have incredible reviews from people with reliable ears?
thats like saying those new fangled gas powered car engines are just noise and smoke, I'll stick with my horse thank you very much!
My reference amp is class AB, but not because I don't believe class D can do what my Burmy's do. I have no doubt a class D amp can be designed to sound as good or better then my 911mk3's. I just haven't heard one YET. I keep an open mind and an open ear to all new tech. What's to lose? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Your loss..... There are some amazing class D amps out there. And some of them blow their equally priced class AB amps out of the water. |
It's amusing to read about SS amps that people claim are "tubelike" in a thread about DACs.
Why not just buy a tube amp and stop hoping to find a SS amp that comes close?
Steve Nugent's thoughts got people all excited, but maybe you guys missed the part about him actually USING a TUBE amp...not these other SS amps. (Plus, he was previously using a John Curl designed SS amp that he further modified to extract performance, yet it STILL wasn't enough and now he uses tubes.)
To each his own, but, personally, I don't see why anyone would spend that kind of money on a class D amp or small company SS amp, when you could get an ARC Reference amp that will drive almost any speaker for the same price.
Odds are good that you will then laugh at all the SS amps futilely trying to duplicate that sound...plus have a ready resale market...lifetime service...and unparalleled pedigree.
Many SS amps sound really nice and even have tech specs that sound better on paper. I use several myself, but, for ultimate sound quality, most people eventually return to tubes and not vice-versa for a reason. |
Hi Jwm
Is this because you find they all have an identifiable sonic signature or theoretical based on the fact they're class D? Just curious.
Charles, |
It's funny that I totally have no interest what so ever in any Class D amplifier.
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Teranis is a lovely amp indeed. Yes, I would consider its overall performance as a junior, and perhaps subtly warmer version of the Merrill Veritas.
In its default configuration of 26dB gain, Teranis will do fine with moderately large speakers that do not present particularly tough load challenges... With my Vienna Die Muzik, and the amp driven by Rowland Aeris, when increasing volume to realistic listening levels, suddenly the sound crosses into an area of lesser linearity, where the presentation becomes slightly boomy/shouty and less relaxed.
However, this is not a fatal flaw. Merril increased my evaluation unit gain to 29dB, which enabled Teranis to handle my speakers with ease.
It is worth noting that some other NCore NC500-based amps -- such as the Acoustic Imagery ATSAH 500 -- sport a dedicated NC1200/700 SMPS per channel instead of the single NC1200/700 shared for the two channels in Teranis. I conjecture that such implementations might be better suited for relatively demanding speakers.
Regards, G.
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Matt - the Taranis is even more of a bargain that it would be at around $4000 since the price w/free shipping from Merrill Audio is actually $2500. A review of the Taranis (used w/a tube pre-amp) was posted here on Audiogon some weeks ago. A link to a recent 3rd party "professional" review of the Taranis is also available in that review thread. |
Hi all. Merry Christmas.
I wanted to give a brief report on the Merrill Taranis stereo amp and Cara Pre-amp I was fortunate enough to audition. The Taranis is 400wpc into 8 ohms class D in the same design as my nCore Veritas amps. The preamp and amp are a matching design with a top panel mounted over an underlying chassis; not like the aluminum billet milled Veritas chassis. The front is polished with central screens. Very attractive overall. The case rings with a finger tap and doesn't have the solidity of the Veritas. The amp sounded like a budget version of the Veritas; neutral, dynamic, engaging and quite a bargain at, I think, around $4k. The Cara is also around the same price and had a warmer, sweater sound with a nice deep soundstage. A bit tubelike. I would say the amp is flexible in that it would sound good with solid state or tube gear. I think the preamp needs the Taranis to sound it's best. For under $10k it's a nice sounding combo but there is a LOT of competition in that price range and some is very good. Merrill has a very flexible audition policy and if your in the market for that price range gear then it's worth a consideration. |
I meant the Bricasti M1 DAC with the Wilson/D'Agostino combo I talked about above. Also, just heard the new Sabrina's with the new 150WPC tube AR integrated and I think it had the Bricasti DAC as well. Could easily live with that pairing too. Heard that at Sunny's in SoCal and it was amazing. |
So, when I read the several posts mentioning Wells Audio, I
just had to wade in.
Before I talk about Wells, I thought since I don’t post a
lot that it’d be helpful for you to understand my particular tastes in audio. I
can say that I really like what Steve N does with his gear. The last two years
at Newport were very very good, one of the best rooms at the show, especially
2014 with Vapor Audio. I favor sound as Steve does; very open, transparent, and
with all extreme’s intact. Steve’s gear does all ranges great but the treble
area and cymbals in particular are so beautiful. Really, the best I’ve heard. I
also like MBL, D’Agostino, McIntosh, and other solid state gear. I do not
recall what room it was, but there were some of the smaller Wilson Sabrina’s
playing with D’Agostino mono’s and their top preamp. That room was probably my
favorite this year; the amps had vice-like control and with I believe a M9 DAC,
it was really very nice; so easy to listen to with the entire frequency range
beautifully demonstrated. So, with that, now you know my audio perspective.
I first remember hearing Wells Audio at Newport 2014 and
then heard it again at CanJam 2015. I heard both of Jeff’s head phone amps at
CanJam. But the Headtrip was just amazing. This is basically an Inamorata in a
smaller case according to Jeff. The setup had the Lampi Model 4 Gen 5 dac with
Dana Cables/ACT power cables and a Mac Mini front end. The headphones were HIFIMAN
HE 560s. This system was heaven. I listened to headphones at that show that cost
two or three times the 560s and on some fairly costly systems too. None even came
close to the Wells Audio system. Again, none were even near the same league. If
I would have had $17,000 to spare, I’d have bought that setup and never looked
back, it was that staggeringly good. Every time I mention it to my friend that
was with me, he thinks exactly the same thing. The Wells Audio amp and the rest
of the setup made the headphones just sing. I also vaguely remember the 2014
Newport show, which I think had less supporting gear but was also very good;
natural, punchy, and musical.
So, I realize I just brought head phones into this thread.
But I have also heard the full size Inamorata stereo amp at Newport 2015. (I
don’t know if this was the SE model or not) Despite the small room the overall
sound was somewhat above average. Of course, that is just my general thought. I
think that the ancillary gear and setup lacked; it just didn’t have the quality
of gear needed for it to shine. I did speak momentarily to Jeff and he didn’t
seem amped the way he did at CanJam. I do think that if the Inamorata can sound
anything like my experience with the headphones it will be an amazing amp. I
hope to hear it in a venue with suitable supporting equipment. That’s my
experience with Wells Audio and I do look forward to what Jeff is doing and
hope to hear his gear again soon. |
Happy holidays to all of you! Have a happy and healthy new year!
May your ears be filled with music and song! |
Merry Christmas everyone. |
A super phone for the ages? Samsung Galaxy s7 edge +,
Stereo D/A converter from ESS Technology.
This converter (SABRE9018AQ2M) debuted at the Consumer Electronics Show in January 2015, and is the world’s most powerful 32-bit converter. It features 129dB dynamic range and -120dB (0.0001 percent) harmonic distortion.
Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/samsung-galaxy-s7-news/#ixzz3vFT3FXjN Follow us: @digitaltrends on Twitter | digitaltrendsftw on Facebook, , I have the s 6 edge +, this phone sounds good blue toothed to a car stereo, the s7 edge + could be a radical tool to blue tooth to our system's!, |
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I just found out that Aesthetix is now using the Stealth Cap by Mundorf I believe is he company. |
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I've yet to hear a D'agostino in a store that I liked. Personally, any of the amps we have all spoken about have sounded much better to me (I've heard many, but not all the amps in this thread). They are pretty to look at, but at that price point, I think the Ayre, Boulder, Rowland, AR, Aestheix and others crush it for refinement etc... Just my personal opinion.
Matt, not sure if it does have VC or not. Just getting feedback from everyone I know who's been hearing it that it's a killer at under 13k. That's a great price point right now as there are more and more choices. The more I listen to systems, the more I am appreciating my own OSDE/SE. There are a few other DAC's that I like too, but most still don't deal properly with the power supply issues that are so important in digital and I also don't think many manufacturer's fully get digital filtering the way Steve and a few other engineers do. I know I'll get skewered but I heard the DCS stack again on something other than Wilson XLF (not a fan at all) and I was left asking the question "who would purchase that over some of the other choices in the 15k range". Again, JMHO and I know many don't hear what I do. |
I've heard the Wells Audio Inamorata in 3 different systems. A fabulous amp which sounds as liquid and natural as solid state can, but with all of the detail and transparency that can escape tubes. This from a dyed in the wool tube man. If I were to purchase a ss amp, if I could not pull off a D'Agostino, I would get a Wells. |
Steve N,
I am so happy to see someone as respected and knowledgeable as yourself mention Wells Audio here. I purchased the Inamorata Signature this time last year and can not be happier with it! I am actually surprised Wells Audio does not get mentioned more often.
Also, very interesting to see you have a Plasmatron. I have been interested off and on over the last three years...but there continues to be very little spoken about them since I was first made aware of it during its beta testing. I wish owners would come out and speak more about them --like what changes they hear to their systems.
and great adventure thread, Matt!
Thanks!
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Hi Labrynth. I haven't installed the outlets yet. Just no time. The plasmatron is in the system but I have not had time to listen yet. Burn in is supposed to be about 100 hours. I'm not close.
The Eclipse hasn't made it to my place yet. Again, my schedule between work and the holidays has been insane. I don't know if the Eclipse Romulus I would be trying has the VC. CTSooner might know. I'll let you know when I know. |
Not Matt and no I haven't heard the Eclipse yet, but I've spoken to a few whom I trust (similar hearing as mine, so take it for what it's worth). That DAC is a very very serious contender right now. I auditioned the Rom Sig two weeks ago and really thought it was musical as heck. I was able to listen for hours to that with Atlas stereo amp, Aesthetix pre (not sure which one off hand) and Vandersteen Quatro CT's with mid level AQ cabling through out.
I got lost in the music as we listened to everything you can imagine. The sound dug very deep when there was bass information and the sound stage was as though we were there. It was fast, clean and emotional. Things just sounded the way they were supposed to sound. No grain and very low noise floor. I was impressed by that as tubes often aren't as quiet as great SS gear. It wasn't as quiet as the Ayre Twenty gear, but quiet non the less.
That said, I was told that the Romulus Signature doesn't hold a candle to the new Eclipse gear. I know that Richfield and Matt both have spent time with the Eclipse. They also seem to have liked what they heard and it wasn't even close to being broken in. Between the Eclipse and eventually new Ayre DAC's along with all the other contenders upgrading, digital seems to be getting where we all hoped it was going in the 90's. JMHO |
Matt, did you read my last post to you? , when you get time, get back to me, thank you. |
That's the ticket Jbdian. Yes, which one are you getting? I've been looking for used ones and found a couple so far. |
ctsooner: The CD/DVD ripper is the Acronova Nimbie NB21-DVD Auto Publisher, or NB-21BR for Blu-ray. I just bought one for ripping my 4,000+ CD collection. Then I plan to sell it like your friends out west.
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Oh, I may be at Audio Connection in Verona, NJ tomorrow if anyone is around. I've asked Matt and Richfield so far off line, but I know some of you guys are down that way. Let me know if you may be around. It all depends on whether I have to run up to pick up my daughter at college or not. cheers all.
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