Another favorite cartridge vanishes.. Dynavector 17D3. GONE! replaced..

"Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,"

Music is  distortion of peaceful and calm air.

Of course, enjoy the music, whatever your definition of it is. My neighbors thought that Sid Vicious was just a noise.

Tanks for the advise, but I want to indulge myself in a history lesson first with one of the Karats. If that 'house' sound appeals to me I might consider going for their top contender. But never at retail price!

BTW, this XV-1S must also be a serious contender for the most ugly MC design known to mankind......

Dear @edgewear: Karats are at the mid of the top Dynavector  models. Since the XX1 the Dyna changed the cartridge motor with a new design: " Flux Damper " that certainly was an is atrue improvement in the quality level performance levels against all Karats, it is a new design.

So if you want to try Dyna then you need to go for the XV-1s. I owned the best Karat ever the 13 D ( two samples ) and the new Dyna design is really superior. There is no reason for you could not be satisfied with in case you buy it.

R.

@rauliruegas 

Which makes you wonder all the more why current top level cartridges have to cost in excess of 10k.

Now I'm aware that the Lapis would probably cost the same in today's money, but it is hardly the only vintage cartridge that is competitive with current systems.

I'm not yet familiar with any of the Dynavectors, but would like to try one. There are many different versions of the Karat, which makes it difficult to pick the best one. Based on your huge experience, which one(s) would you recommend?

Dear @edgewear: "  the proof that current top-of-the-line cartridges are not in a different universe as some people claim. "

No, are not because the main cartridge design/build characteristics almost does not changed through the years. What changed are some of the cartridge build materials or stylus shape or body shapes and the like.

The past and today " universe " on cartridge is exactly the same but exist differences in between do to those changes I named here but the cartridge motor of your Kiseki is first rate and VDH makes good job about with latest cantilever/stylus. Good for you.

R.

@rauliruegas 

Yes, you are correct. I found some pictures on the web that clearly show as much. Oh well, at least the stylus was polished by human hair....... (this Van den Dungen character sure had a weird sense of humor). But even refurbished with Van den Hul's selected tip on boron cantilever it still sounds amazing. For me listening to this cartridge delivers the proof that current top-of-the-line cartridges are not in a different universe as some people claim.

. 

I guess I'm somewhat flattered in that you and all are following

actually - I saw the cat reference in the recent discussions section this morning (when perusing for Saturday morning funnies). If someone posts about a dog or cat I can't resist. Appears I missed the main bout (removed threads). So its not about you Slaw. 

Regarding the Dynavector. I have an XV1 and my cat finds its long cantilever "alluring". I find it "intimidating".

Should I replace it with a Decca..... .....

@elizabeth Hey, Liz, if you want to stock up with a backup 17D3, somebody just posted one used. 

@slaw You need to take to Twitter. I drafted one to get you started, "Lyin' cheat' mods! You should be investigating @geoffkait 's emails!". 

Take a deep breath, everyone. This is supposed to be fun! Cheers,
Spencer

@ct0517 ,

I'd like it if you and anyone else sitting back waiting for an opportunity to find a mistake would actually contribute to one of the ongoing music threads.

Steve

Dear @edgewear:  That Kiseki you owned was a great cartridge and maybe the more expensive one in its times. I owned ( second hand. ) the Fokadu Blackheart very good too.

But no the Kiseki/Fokadu designs did not used not even in your top of the line model a one piece cantilever/stylus.

R.

....cat fight.....8^0

Whart - that is an very interesting breed. We just added an F3 Savannah as a companion to our Black Lab Koaltar.   

I love a good old fashioned slap fight!

Well, whatever the story is with these cartridges and loading and deleted posts, etc., my respect for Elizabeth went up a notch as a result of being a cat rescue person. I have enough on my hands being butler to a pair of insane Egyptian Maus, but that's a whole other story. 
Carry on!

Lizzie, if you insist on hating me, at least do so for the right reason; 100 ohms was not my message at all.

Angry? no anger, just tellin’ folks my little dial is set at 60 ohms. Like I wrote that is the setting I find to sound the best in my system. If you think 100 ohms is written in stone, good for you. I don’t. (the great mystery is how do these gurus know my little knob is even accurate? amazing how omniscient they are?)
As for idiots reading this years from now. Thank goodness they MIGHT actually listen for themselves instead of reading your sermon on the loading has to be 100 ohms.
Actually all you future dummies. never listen for yourselves. Know only what the Gurus of old tell you is allowed, and should forevermore be copied by you future noobs. Remember they know everything, even what your last fart smelled like... And they WILL come back to haunt you if you waver.             
I cannot tell you how many old farts haunt me!

slaw.... It all those buttered cats. When I find a stray, I get out the butter... Thankless task.. I know... But I do what I can for all cats.
It’s not just Audiophile Police....And my posting in high regard.. WHAT!!  no way dude. no way... My head would swell up like a watermelon. I would start telling people how to behave...

My only point in mentioning the question of load resistance for the 17D3 was to inform or advise any newbie who may read this thread.  Obviously, real life experience and one's own personal taste and preferences take precedence when it comes to choosing the load resistance.  In fact, there are many cases where end users find that the "best sounding" load resistance for any particular LOMC cartridge is a value less than the theoretical ideal of 10X the internal impedance of the cartridge.  However, when you get down to using a load resistance that is around 2X the DCR of the cartridge, there are some inevitable trade-offs.  Which again is not to say there's anything wrong with that.  I'll keep an open mind when I finally set up my own 17D3.  Elizabeth, I have no idea why this makes you so angry, apparently.

@rauliruegas 
I believe that the Kiseki Lapis Lazuli also had a one piece diamond stylus/cantilever. I have one, but my sample was already re-tipped by vdHul when it came in my possession. Despite not being original anymore, it still sounds pretty good!

Dear @bill_k  @hdm @slaw : Dynavector never manufactured/designed a cartridge where the cantilever and stylus were made from one solid cantilever/stylus. Dynavector always made it as the 99% of LOMC manufacturers: two pieces.

If my memory is good only two cartridge manufacturers did it cantilever/stylus as one piece and these cartridges was: Audio Technica AT1000 and Sony XL88D ( I owned both. ). Both one piece of diamond. maybe could exist a third one that rigth now I can't remember but certainly Dynavector was not one of them.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Facts have little say in what any given persons brain decides to hear .

Maybe.

Golly, Maybe the audiophile police will come and take me away!    (one can only hope)                       
I will worry about it when it sounds bad... LOL

 Elizabeth, you are certainly entitled to do whatever you like with loading your 17 D3. However be aware that at 60 ohms you are dumping a fraction of the audio signal to ground, and there will be a high frequency roll off at frequencies probably lower than 20 kHz. This is a fact, not theory, not opinion.

My 17D3 is currently loaded at 60 ohms (additional) besides all other internal and cable.  
I load it based on HOW IT SOUNDS, and not on theory.

Saw something interesting on the spec sheet for the 17D3; the internal resistance is 38 ohms! This means don’t use the standard 100 ohm load that one would normally use for an LOMC with 0.3mV output. It also means that the 17D3 has relatively large coils and relatively weak magnets. I am in no way saying or thinking that these numbers predict mediocre sound quality. As I recall, when it was introduced, the 17D3 was something of a giant killer at its original price. I still have not auditioned mine, which has very low hours from new. (It is from the estate of my dearest audiophile friend; I was consulted on his decision to purchase it, although he was at least as knowledgeable as I will ever be.) I actually heard it on his system once or twice before his symptoms of dementia became very advanced.  We both liked it.
I would load mine at no lower than 1000R, maybe 47K.
Chakster, how do you load your 17DS?

@elizabeth-  Here’s your chance: http://www.elusivedisc.com/Certified-Factory-Rebuilt-Dynavector-Karat-17D3-Mk3-MC-Cartridge-03mV/pro...

Not sure how many of you ever seen modern solid rod boron cantilevers and how the nude diamonds actually mounted on them? Expecially after re-tipping. You will see a huge amount of glue around the nude diamond, this is the only substance that hold the diamond. Laser mounting style and Hollow Pipe Boron cantilevers are no longed available for any cartridge manufacturers. 

If someone will glue a brand new stylus tip on Karat 17DS then you will see a huge amount of glue on the cantilever around the diamond, also the diamond can be totally different in shape/size.

As you can see there is no glue around the diamond on my original Karat 17DS.

I can’t see any glue on my Karat 23RS Ruby.

Those original Dyna diamond or ruby have much less glue even compared to the pressure-fitted Ortofon Replicant-100 diamond on my SPU Royal G mkII.

There is no visible amount of glue on Victor X-1II cart with Beryllium cantilever.

This is what i call a perfect stylus/cantilever combo.

Let me find a picture of re-tipped cartridge, you will be shocked

My local hifi dealer had a D3 for demo purposes, they’d only had it a couple of days when the stylus disapperared, cantilever still intact, a badly glued stylus was the importer’s verdict and they sent a replacement.

With respect to styli, "nude" does not necessarily mean that the stylus will not be glued to the cantilever (most in fact will be-laser mounting is another option); it simply means that the entire stylus is diamond. 

Bonded or tipped styli, on the other hand, will feature only a small diamond tip which in turn is fastened (bonded) to a metal shank which in turn is then fastened/glued to the cantilever. Cheaper, more moving mass, poorer peformance (usually) etc. 

I'd be really surprised if the 17DS is indeed "one piece"; if it's even possible to do I would think that the cost would be prohibitive. 

@chakster I admire both the quality of your pics as well as how clean you keep your cantilever and stylus! From the first macro pic you can see that the stylus has a square shank which is mounted to the finely machined tapered diamond cantilever. Quite a piece of workmanship indeed, but if it was entirely machined as one piece I don’t believe the stylus would have a square shank which is used to facilitate its proper alignment within the cantilever assembly. Definitely a unique cartridge!

@bill_k I’m not 100% sure, but some other manufacturers claimed their diamond cantilever/stylus is one piece of gemstone.

I can add few more pictures of my 17DS

Anyway, nude diamond is not glued on cantilever like retippers can do. It’s another story.

@chakster - Thanks for sharing that article with details of several unique designs from Dynavector. Still unclear about the validity of your previous claim that the 17DS diamond cantilever and stylus are one piece. TIA!

As good as the 17D3 is/was, I still prefer the 17D2MKII over the 17D3.