With my setup their is no crashes ever.At first the Bryston had some software issues this is now resolved,and I have had several
$10 K plus analog systems and with the Ayon Skylla-2 dac
Myself and others feel this is a great way to get the benefits
Of analog with many added bonuses. I donot miss the ritual of cleaning and drying discs then still having clicking and pops .
The New cd-5 s, as well as the Skylla -2 now use Mundorfs best
Silver,Gold,Oil capacitors and these are specked even better at 1 percent.
This makes this unit more dynamic ,liquid, and open sounding
Very good analog sound is a good way to describe this digital sound. |
Audioman, I don't doubt your digital solution sounds great, but there seems to be a lot of steps in the signal chain, so i'm less convinced about of any advantage from shortening the signal path. Less moving parts? Well look at Accuphase, Ayon & Vitus; they produce bullet proof transports which are very accurate, so I don't see any deficit there. Whilst I do agree that mainstream cd's will inevitably fade out, leaving mostly audiophile cd labels still producing high rez cd's, I don't believe in absolutes like "This is the future". Who says so? That is not true for me if I don't agree with it. I plan to buy a lot of audiophile grade cd's and vinyl in the next few years and continue to play them on my cdp. My next cdp is likely to be the future replacement for the current Vitus SCD-010. I'd be more than happy to put the Vitus up against any streamer on the planet. At the end of the day however, vinyl played on a high end rig is still clearly superior to even the best digital front ends i've heard. As for Ayon, since I already reviewed the CD-5s in an earlier post, I wont comment any further on it's sound or repeat specs or part bins which can be readily found on Ayon's website or in the many online reviews. Suffice to say it is a wonderful sounding player. |
There seems to me continued confusion over the advantages of reading a CD into memory before replay as in a computer versus just reading it on the fly as CD players do. Anyone who has experienced the vastly different ripping times on various CDs will appreciate that there are numerous read-errors on direct replay which a small buffer can only imperfectly address. |
Antigrunge, thanks for your f/back. I would think the very best cdp's like Vitus would be considerably more accurate than the majority of cdp's. Also, Boulder's 1021 player features up and oversampling (8x) and a buffer which reads approx 2 minutes ahead, so the performance is comparable to ripped files. Not sure how the Vitus works, but to my ears the SCD-010 sounded just a touch better than the Boulder, but it was very very close. |
Before making any statements regarding digital players
You must have the best digital cables , and I feel the Wireworld Platinum usb, and xlr digital cables fit that bill,also the Bryston being all solid state
From buffer , angela@ sound card greatly modified as well as a pure
Class-A analog output stage is a major step up from Any transport out there.I compared the cd-5s standard as well as master recordings, then
The ripped version through db power amp program it is just more natural sounding and 3 dimensional sounding ,the Bryston player truly raises the barred the reviews- awards then take the time to experiment with slower rips and a good ripping program,it is also much better than from a computer
No notice from internal drives and fans and switching .
Starting in 2012 more and more new and old Hirez downloads are becoming available. I owned a Clearaudio turntable setup worth over $ 15 k
That I don't personally feel it bettered my current setup especially when they both are close In sonics.Inmy opinion no cd player out there is as good. Don't knock it until you have built a digital library to an external hard drive going to the Bryston
Digital player with the best programs and cables. |
Audioman58, I also have ayon cd-5s.
Great player with really good pre-amp.
Your comments about using Bryston digital player instead of transport made me thinking about setting up front end utilizing Bryston and finally have my all cds on a hard drive. Couple questions here. Does computer and cd/dvd drive quality/brand affect ripping qulity. Is that better to rip cds on computer first or directly to external HD. Does one need to use specific brand/quality of external HD. How dificault to attach ipod/ipad as a remote for Bryston? Your input will be very helpful.
Thank you. |
Melbguy,
what puzzles me about cd replay relative to straight downloads is that you can significantly improve CD sound quality by applying liquids such as Audiotop as I have ascertained on my AudioAero Capitole 24/192 mk2 SE with discrete output stage modification. This goes to show that the actual reading errors on the Cd are depending on surface treatment, irrespective of buffering. Hence my contention that Cd can not match a proper computer server. In any case replay through my Mach2music via Antelope Zodiac Gold + Voltikus is a quantum leap ahead of the AudioAero, generally acknowledged no mean player by itsself. |
Melbguy1,
Vinyl does not destroy my Electrocompaniet EMC-1Up, in my system and in my listening room.
My LPs are in a crate. My last turntable is long gone. |
Hi Melb1
Can you tell me your experience with the Ayon, KWA 150 combo. I have the same equipment, but have trouble with noise when i use the the Ayon as a preamp. Did you use XLR or RCA cables?
Thanks |
Hi Antrigrunge,
I agree some cd treatments such as Ultrabit Platinum Plus can make a qualitative difference to the sound of cd's, but it's not really arduous; one treatment should last for years of normal use. It's interesting you mentioned your modded AA Capitole SE. I did an a-b comparison of a stock previous model Ayon CD-5 vs an AA Prestige player, and the CD-5 beat it comfortably. My modded CD-5s is significantly better, and my next player (likely a future Vitus model) will be in another league again. I appreciate the technical benefits of ripped and server based music, but at a certain level cd players like my modded CD-5s & higher end players like Vitus demonstrate what cd playback can do. With that said, I plan to invest in a high end server in a few years and connect that to my cdp's dac via SPDIF. I will still continue buy and play cd's however. I find downloads 'soulless' to be honest. There is no luxury packaging, booklets, photos, postcards etc which you can flick through and read (which often provide as much enjoyment as the cd itself). And a picture on a screen can never replace a colorful cd top cover or booklet. Audiophile cd's and cd's in general will be like gold in the future once the novelty of computer-based music has diminished, the world is devoid of character and wondering what went wrong. In 15 or 20 years, I predict high end cdp's & cd's will make a comeback just like vinyl did. |
02-26-12: Danielk141,
Well I guess it depends on the level of deck we're talking about. The vinyl rig I heard demonstrated this to me was a Transrotor Rondino with an SME-V arm, Miyajima Shilabe cart, Vitus SP-101 phono stage & Siltech Royal Signature Series balanced cables. Fwiw, I like the warm, analogue sound of the EMC-1UP. The Ayon CD-5s has a similarly warm, analogue sound, though I would say the Electro is a bit more laid back in comparison. Glad you're enjoying your cd player :) |
Hi Leicachamp, I asked Dan this very question previously, and this was his response -
"Hi, first of all, it is true that the input impedance of our amps is 15K at 50Hz. Our peamps range from 100ohm-300ohn-600ohm and I have driven our amps WELL with all of our preamps. A 300ohm Zout is NOT problem."
The reality is, the KWA-150 has a relatively difficult input impedance of 13K ohms which presents a difficult load to a preamp with high output impedance. The CD-5/5s has a moderately high output impedance of 300 ohms. In regard to your noise issues, this could be due to a number of things, but starting with the most obvious (cables); reviews have indicated that balanced out is more neutral in sound, whilst single ended sounds a bit warmer but at the cost of a higher noise floor. Conceptually, I prefer balanced cables and always use them when possible. I would rule line noise out as the Ayon is a pure power source. How many hours does your player have? The CD-5/5s needs 250hrs to fully bloom. Are you using stock tubes, or rolled tubes? The stock tubes should be perfect as Ayon use the best tube testing equipment in the world & only send out players with tubes tested for all 5 specs. With the KWA-150 I recommend setting the gain to 'low' and make sure the rca/xlr toggle is set correctly. Hope that helps. |
Melbguy1, thank for all your advise and info, I also own cd-5s and very happy with its sound and the pre-amplifier section in this unit is very good. I sold my ARC ref-3 pre-amp after buying ayon cd-5s. Melbguy1 I got yu advise and changed tubes to NOS 6h30p-dr. Parts connections sells 1986 for $80-90 a pair and they can do matching quad. Very worthy upgrade. Thank you.
I have one question so. My amplifier 3 month old Krell 302E) has input impendence of 100k ohm thru RCA and 200k ohm thru XLR. Using the XLR connection from Ayon to Krell, every time pressing play button on Ayon (starting or re-starting CD) I hear very audible metallic ping sound coming form a speakers tweeters. Also the sound becomes noisy on loudly recorded cds. Again noise coming from tweeters. . This is not happening using RCA. Is that attributed to a high gain krell is getting using XLR outs?
In both cases I drive krell directly from ayon. The low or high gain switch on ayon does not affect that ping sound. Any input will be highly appreciated. Thank you.
|
Hi Melbguy,
A quick word of advice would eb appreciated, I have had a CD1s for 18 months or so alongside an Origin Live TT which I think is fab. I recently upgraded my pre/power to the excellent Lamm L2/M1.2 reference, as a result my vinyl replay sounds even better but the 'gap' with the CD has got bigger. I am therefore considering a 'final' (haha) upgrade to my CD and thinking of the CD5s, however I am paying for the in built pre amp which will be redundant and do you feel it will give me the substantial upgrade I am looking for. I am a long way from an Ayon dealer so a demo is not possible, any advice greatfully received including if I should look at any other CD's in this range but use my Lamm pre eg. AR CD08
Thanks Mike |
Hi denon
I think the prices you quoted from parts connections are 4 years old. The current price is about $210 a pair.
Melb
Did you ever had success with the ayon/kwa150 combo?
Thanks |
Melb, I bought those tubes a 2 month ago with 20% discount. It cost me about $360 (extra charge for matched quad) with shipping from Canada. I sudjest you contact them and see what they can do. |
Hi Denon.
You will find a lot of your questions if you email Ayon and ask for an updated instruction book. They have added a section warning about some high powered amps and xlr cables. The updated instruction book only became available last month.
$360 for a quad pair of tubes seems about right. But you mentioned $89-90 for a matched pair in your post.
Also did you upgrade the 6z4 tubes? On the old cd5 I think they were 6x4 tubes. Can someone confirm? |
Below is sn email i recieved from AYON
Dear Sir,
You have a gryphon preamp, just connect the CD-5s to your preamp and your
preamp to the KW150.
If you wish to drive the KW150 directly, use RCA, you will get out the best
result thru RCA.
Below is a note from the CD-5s owner's manual when you connect the CD-5s
directly via XLR to a solid state amp.
Exceptions for the direct connection of the CD-Player with solid-state
power amplifiers or active loudspeakers:
There are some solid-state power amplifiers or active loudspeakers, with
which you rather should not use the symmetrical connection, or where, as the
case may be, a loud hum modulation, high-frequency interference signals or a
so-called oscillation can occur.
The Ayon 6H30-tube output stage is designed extremely puristical and
short; i.e. absolutely no negative feedback, no correcting or compensating
devices and no filter in the circuit. (See also the note about the special
properties of the 6H30 tube).
But pure tube design also means a big and difficult challenge in
realization for our engineers; and also e.g. we would respect some
non-important measuring data to a much lesser extent. All these puristical
sound-techniques require that the electrical interface parameters of the
subsequent power amplifiers should match the ones of the CD-Player in
accordance with the standards.
Typically the input impedance of power amplifiers is 47k or above. However,
there are solid-state power amplifiers with a lower value (down to only
1.8k). I.e., there is a significant matching problem between the CD-Player
and the solid-state power amplifier (impedance, capacity, phase rotation
etc.; in special cases there may also be a problem of a difference in the
grounding-potential of the connection). Furthermore some solid-state power
amplifiers possess not too big an input override rigidity (but paradoxically
in addition a high input sensitivity); therefore additionally they quickly
are overcharged by the strong puristic symmetrical output stage of the
CD-Player.
Therefore, in case of symmetrical input values below 47k we strongly
recommend to use the asymmetric RCA/cinch connection or a classic separate
preamplifier.
Note: in case you really wish to use the symmetric direct connection, we
can adapt the CD-Player to the special electric properties (power amplifier
or active speaker) to a large extent at your costs. Please note that then
the CD-Player can only be operated at optimal conditions with this
particular solid-state power amplifier or another with very similar
electrical input parameters.
Best regards,
Michael |
I too notice a high, metallic 'ping' sound from my Ayon CD5s when changing sources; and it locks on to new source; its just a blip then wonderful and warm sound. I use balanced IC's from Ayon, but run it into a tubed VAC preamp; then out balanced to my solid state amps...so its not just when using the preamp function of Ayon that it 'pings', must a blip in its design; but I just get used to it; and don't worry about it anymore. No harm, no foul, but I do enjoy its wonderful sound stage; and detail and warmth... |
Mribob
Did u ever try xlr direct into your poweramps? |
Denon, i'd agree the preamp section in the CD-5s is good enough to knock off the Ref 3. In regard to your Krell 302, the imput impedance is set very high on xlr & should be benign to even the weakest tube preamps.
In regard to the metallic "ping" which you hear when you press play on your Ayon, this comes from the 6H30 tube filament and is very normal. Ayon do not use any negative feedback or compensators to erase tube noise or hum as most manufactures are doing. Boulder are the only company which properly understand negative feedback, but they are an exception. Most other applications of GNF have a negative impact on the sound.
Regarding the noise issue you're experiencing on "loudly" recorded cd's. Firstly, xlr cables help lower the noise floor through common mode noise rejection & better grounding, but also roughly double line level gain. The CD-5s already has high gain, and due to your Krell's high input impedance no doubt your over-juicing your amp which is causing the distortion. As a starting point, i'd recommend leaving the gain toggle set to 'low'. Remember the clipping point doesn't change with balanced cables, only the position on the volume control where that occurs. If the above doesn't solve your issue, i'd switch back to single ended cables which are apparently lowering the line level gain to an acceptable level.
Concerning the 6h30DR tubes, yes they are much superior to the factory EB's and provide a substantial improvement. But given the diminishing stocks of these tubes, I wouldn't have (personally) posted my source for the tubes, unless of course I didn't mind stock levels running down to ever looser matches & prices correspondingly increasing. My 2 cents. |
Hi Mn9394, i'm not surprised your CD1s is struggling up against your Lamm amps! It sounds like you're looking for a warm, analogue sounding cdp. My advice is, give most consideration to the dac section, digital inputs and how it handles server based music (especially if this is going to be your last cdp) as we will all be using servers or pc's based digital sources in future. With that said, some players around that price range which I like are of course the CD-5s, Ancient Audio Lektor Air-V, Zanden Model 2500 (pre loved), Vitus RCD-100, Vitus SCD-010 (pre loved). I haven't included the ARC in this group purely because I find ARC a bit too neutral and lean sounding for my taste. In regard to the Ayon's preamp section, think of the CD-5s as an excellent transport and valve dac which is it's main function. The preamp circuitry does not take up much real estate...just compare a Skylla 2 dac vs a CD-5s. Besides, the preamp circuitry is switched off when you run preamp out. I can't really add much more to my review above. It is a terrific valve cdp.
Regards,
MG |
02-27-12: Leicachamp
I have heard the KWA-150 set up with a CD-2s as source run single ended into the MW. The speakers were Wilson Benesch ACT's. This combination sounded wonderfully warm & liquid. Very tube-like! I'd definitely go single ended if you're considering a CD-5s/KWA-150 pairing. Incidentally, if your budget can stretch a bit, i'd grab the 'signature edition' which is even better, but that's a story for another thread. |
Fab, many thanks indeed!
Mike |
Hi, I have not had my ayon 2s player long, to eanybody out there,, Do you think when this player breaks in, will I have the huge sound stage and mid-range thickness of snare drums and vocals that I had with the 12ax7 and 12au7 tubes, wich to me sounded more real and musical!, however, I only have 35 hrs on this player LOL!,, the tubes mentioned above also had awsome bloom!,I hope this player will not sound like solid state! cheers! |
Dear All,
I'm the owner of a Ayon CD5 since a few years now and recently a friend of mine told me that the sound was more detailed with the Ayon CD5 directly connected to the power amps (Solid State Class A) than through my preamp Joule Electra LA 150 SE. I sadly agreed with him without understanding, as the Joule is a really great preamp. Strangely I don't have the same when using the Joule with my Cary CAD 211 AE power amps (tube amps). So I guess something is wrong somewhere.
Joule preamp has a hight output impedance (400 or 1200 Ohms switchable) with input impedance 15000 Ohms (RCA), CD5 has a 300 Ohms output impedance and my solid state power amps is around 20KOhms(RCA). Carys are around 50 KOhms (RCA)and 100 KOHms (XLR)
Could this explain a lower level of details with my solid state amps ?
I also would like to understand something about gain setting and with the CD5 : let's say I select the 6V output, does it mean that when I set up the Ayon CD5 volume at its max (0) I will get 6V output, and if I set it up to -30 (50%) I'll get a 3V output ?
Thanks in advance :-) |
Hi Melkior,, I would pm a member name melbguy1, He can better explain everything to you, thou, I do know how to solve your problem!, This member knows more about Ayon than eanybody I know!, tell him I sent you!, He will help!,,, cheers! |
Thanks a lot :-)
I have had some exchange by mail with Gerhard from Ayon, he explained me a few things.
I have a ground noise problem because of impedance matching between CD5, preamp, amps etc..Nothing to see with the CD5 (excepted it's more sensitive to its neighbours on the shelves).
Concerning the volume more or less the gain position gives the max voltage output when playing with the volume. So I'll set it to 4V and put the volume around -30 / - 20 in order to get 2,5V like other players and see what happen. |
