B&W Matrix 801 Series II

Congrats on your new speakers and listen to Ct0517 for setup advise; he knows his stuff. I have heard the 801's in at least five recording studios and at least that many non-studio setups, and learned very quickly just how good these speakers are. Not because the sound was always so great, but because it ranged from "what-the-f%#k" bad to incredibly good. There is a reason that these are/were used in so many studios. They are very revealing of what you feed them; not only in the usual "too bright" or "too dark" sense, but of subtle instrumental textures and phase issues. I have heard some setups using dated digital equipment or mediocre ss amplification sound practically unbearable over the 801's. I also have heard some of the most memorable and realistic sounding playback from them. 801's powered by the classic Conrad Johnson Premier 1 tube amp produced one of the most realistic sounds I have ever heard with fantastic (and correct) mid and lower midrange fullness, image density and dimensionality. I would take that setup in an instant. Enjoy them!

Well, the short answer is that I am very impressed with the 801s. When I first hooked them up in place of the Khorns for the few minutes I thought these speakers are going back. They were so different from the Klips it took me a while to get used to them. At first they seemed slow, almost lethargic compared to the Klips but after listening back and forth to the speakers I started warming up to them. The Khorns have this live, open airy, dynamic sound that I love and am used to hearing. They are also a good match for my MC275 tube MAC which really is not the best choice for the B&Ws. However, going back and forth between the speakers really showed me their differences.

The Khorns--- Very live sounding, open, airy with a tendency toward harshness at times. They make some studio recordings sound almost live. There is an excitement and clarity. You almost tense up sometimes because it feels live and you expect a passage to possibly get louder. They also sound exceptionally good at low volume and on acoustic music. Negatives are the tinge of harshness or rattiness of the very upper end which makes this speaker a bit fatiguing to listen to for longer periods. In my experience, this speaker still rates at the top of my list.

The B&Ws--- They seem like a true studio monitor as has been mentioned. They don't color the sound like the Klips do. They are smooth and not fatiguing to listen to. That is a great plus. Great low end and a B3 organ sounds incredible through them. Drums are really lifelike. Like ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum. Voices sound really good. The MC275 just doesn't have enough horsepower for these speakers. With the right amp and preamp my guess is that these speakers are really going to get where I want to go.

I recently acquired a Parasound Halo A31 (250 watts per channel) for a system in a bedroom and hadn't heard it yet. The difference between this amp and the MAC with the B&Ws was really huge. Of course, the Parasound added a bunch of really good tight bass slam as you would expect but the little MAC was no slouch in the bass department either. What really surprised me was playing Patti Griffin in a very laid back acoustic track was how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy. It is a $3k amp and really not up to what I would want to run through these speakers. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other. The Parasound did sound good enough through my KEF LS50s which is what I bought it for.

ZEN, what is a MBL? I will take your advice and acquire some stands but why does getting these speakers in the air help so much?. Also, I gave $1500 for them. How'd I do?

CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping. Remember , I am a musician not an audiophile. :-)

I am ready for some amp/preamp suggestions. What am I going to have to spend to do these speakers justice? I think I would probably prefer a used amp so I can get more bang for the buck. Would the $5000 range for each piece get me where I need to go? There are a pair of Krell 350mcx mono blocks down where i bought these speakers. They would be the only higher end amps I would have access to in my area.

Frogman, i have never heard a CJ but I have wanted to. They are on my short list.

I need to reread the posts on upgrading the crossovers. That is something i would think would make an appreciable difference on these old speakers. i want to get the most out of them i can.

So, what do you guys think?

Cool, sounds good. Thanks for the report. I can't say too much about the matching amps and preamps as I've never owned the 801s. However, the better the components, the better those are gonna sound. I personally wouldn't screw with the crossovers, I'm not that big into mods as you ruin the resale value and it's hard for me to hear the difference anyway. However, you can get new crossovers from B&W if you feel the crossovers are too old. Just a thought. Not sure on the availability at this time. go to bwgroupsupport.com for more details.

Wemfan-
Glad the purchase has worked out for you.
Price you paid was good. Until you decide to get the Sound Anchor Stands (the 801S2 differs from the 801S3), I would suggest dialing in the position of the speakers first, perhaps waiting until you get an amp that matches up well.

When you have dialed in the position, I would suggest that you try the speakers with the spikes ( there are holes in the bottom of the cabinet. The stainless steel spikes came with the speakers when I bought mine new). If you didn't get them, they are available on ebay occasionally. This way , you can tell if there is any difference in sound, although the Sound Anchor stands are the way to go.

Regarding the NC crossover upgrade, I would probably wait a while. IMHO, they make a difference, but again, it is a shade difference, not a primary color difference. Remember that you do have to cut the connection to the original crossovers to connect to the NC's, plus you are eliminating the tweeter protection circuit. I left the originals in the bottom of the cabinet, and the wires to the NC's crossovers are coming out from the bottom of the speakers. This way, the original XOver can be re-connected if there ever is a need.

In the years I have had these speakers, the APOC protection circuit has only cut in 2 times, both times w/ the standard CD issue of Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, on the cut with the alarm clocks (I was probably listening at about 85-90 dbs). On that CD issue, at least, there was clear distortion in the audio. At this time, I was using a Yamaha M-80 power amp, which was supposedly Class A/AB. This is the interesting part. The specs for the amp were 250W into 8 ohms, 330W into 4 ohms. Bought the amp new, and the amp got fried within 4 years. Then I upgraded to the Krell-KAV150, which ONLY put out 150W. The Krell ( remember that this is Krell's budget line, way inferior to the FPB high end line at the time) CLEARLY blew away the Yamaha in terms of delicacy, warmth, slam, and a sense of unrestrained power.
As an aside, while researching a replacement amp for the Yamaha, I inserted an old SAE Mark XXXIB amp into the chain, which is only rated at 50Wpc. Surprisingly, aside from a little bit of harshness, and a reduction in the the sense of front to back depth of filed,the SAE held its own.

Cheers

Also, I gave $1500 for them. How'd I do?

You did phenomenally. I've been looking for a pair myself and can only wish for a deal like that.

Wemfan - Great news as your speakers are functional. Assuming they are not really flawed cosmetically from being banged around a studio?, I agree with Banquo that you got a steal. fwiw - Last month a Canadian audio friend I know who has owned 801's in the past; purchased 801s again with shipping and he was very happy to pay $2500 plus shipping. They were in very good condition.

Btw - its a pleasure for me reading your honest, unbiased responses.

I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other

This can be seen as blessing or a curse - it depends on your point of view.
For example if you are an audiophile and a bit of a speaker cable/ wire "nut" - you may end up with 12 wires hanging on a wall somewhere in your house; one for every month ....smartly hidden from your ....

wife

The last four or five years I ended up with four turntables ...in the same room..... at the same time.
I place full blame on the 801's.
And if you can't laugh at yourself from time to time; then its time to get out of any hobby.

CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping.

Remember, I am a musician not an audiophile. :-)

In order to become an audiophile you are required to step over to the dark side; do what manufacturers don't want u to do with their products :^)
As long as it does not result in conditions discussed earlier. Follow your own road using your own ears.
Definitely try this. I think you will be surprised at the results.
Remove the jumpers joining the four terminals - put Parasound to the bass terminals - Mc Amp to the Mid/HF connectors.

Biwire.
With factory jumpers removed.
When using just the Mc or the Parasound get another set of identical speaker wire for each speaker. Join the ends at the amp end - two (+) together and two (-) . You can buy banana or spade plugs that do this for you (connect them together) so single plug or spade - results. Be VERY careful not to let wire come loose from the amp input connectors and touch the amp frame.

At the speaker end attach one set (+ and -) to the high and one set to the lows. As the 801 do hit 5 ohms it is important to keep the wires short and decent quality. Don't mix and match the wires going to the mid/highs andf lows- keep them the same.
The last I had the 801 set up was with OTL amplifiers. OTL means Outboard Transformer Less. Meaning the main power transformers are not on the amp plinth where the tubes reside.
In this pic the main amplifier transformers are located outside of the picture area. The speaker cables are only a few feet long biwired.
click me

Like ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum.

We should discuss this as it is the most common complaint from audiophiles on forums.

The good news is the speakers are fine, functional and and working as designed.
There are TWO parts to fix this - imo. if its not resolved with part one - part two will clinch it.

PART ONE is understanding their design and objective. I felt that the Stereophile review did a real good job summing them up based on my experiences.

From Stereophile (re: S2 review)

"Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments."

So we need a good source, preamp and amp/s, as we have discussed and as you have realized as well.

PART TWO of the problem.

Right now you are hearing a tonal imbalance based on your comments and it is causing the highs to stand out or not be as good as they should be. See the attached frequency chart from B&W on the 801's.

801 w &w/o filter in place

The plotted chart is the 801's without the BAF. Note how even though you think you are hearing good bass right now the db levels for the bass whether with SS or Tube are really dropping off starting at 100 hz. In a smaller room that 100hz plateau will cause real boom problems and the room will need to be treated.

The dotted lines have been drawn by B&W and show how the 801's measured with and without the BAF.
See how the dotted line drawn in by B&W for the BAF works on my sample makes the bass more linear. The lows are boosted increasing DB's and this establishes tonal balance by ensuring a flatter plot line. I don't have the actual plotted graph with the BAF.
The result of this is the bass notes will be clearer, and you will hear music notes on material below 40 hz from the source.
You are clearly hearing the differences between the amps now. imo you will therefore clearly hear the difference with the BAF on music that has sub 40 hz music. In technical terms the BAF converts them from a 4th to a 6th order butterworth alignment; with a 19 hz cutoff and boosts the low frequency.

Regarding the Krell amps you mentioned I will / can provide more info on this later as I have run way too long here. We would need to discuss if the Krells have been recapped for example. I think these are "one" example of a truly excellent candidate and would be awesome in that large room of yours. But $5000 is a big budget used as many amp candidates exist used including SS and tube designs. I can tell you I know that your current preamp MC 2300 is compatible with the Krell mentioned because it has capacitors coupled to the outputs to protect against a tube ever blowing and sending DC current to the Krell amp.... as the Krell design has no fuses to protect it if this happened. I have been down this road already because I also am using a Tube preamp albeit with a SS power supply, with my Krell amp right now.

As far as the speakers go; fwiw myself I would leave the crossovers for now - as they are not broken.

Get the BAF, get the stands, Get amp/s first. Here them as John Bowers envisioned first. You can always mod them later if desired.

To understand what the stands will do with proper amps a picture is sometimes worth a thousand words and gives you a glimpse of what these speakers are capable of.

original 801s s80..not matrix on stands...not designed to use BAF

Wemfan - Can I ask if you are an all digital setup (i.e. cd, file streaming) and/or do you play vinyl or plan on later ?
Sorry for the long post ....again.

Cheers

The last I had the 801 set up was with OTL amplifiers. OTL means Outboard Transformer Less. Meaning the main power transformers are not on the amp plinth where the tubes reside.

?????? The Wikipedia Definition may help with your understanding of
an Output Transformerless (OTL) Amplifier, as I don't think it has anything to do with the amp plinth.

Tls49 - my apologies - when you post running to long in your own post ...you should heed your own advice. my bad.
Excuse my excitement - you see I just bought this real nice 9.9 merc 4 stroke motor at bass pro shops at 1/3 off (if this winter ever ends) and have "outboard" on the brain. Yes output. thank u.

but word technicalities aside... this hobby has no real reference standards....so...imo

the main transformers I referenced in discussion really are... "out board", rather than ....."inboard" for the boaters among us....another hobby.....

fwiw I also picked up a nice little portable "dipole" fish finder. it shoots beams down and sideways...not to be confused with dipole speakers....which haven't yet entered the discussion here. But wait someone did mention Maggies earlier....my bad again... cheers

Ct0517, as I was reading, I could sense you were on a roll, and I was giving you a thumbs up for saying to use identical wire when bi-wiring, and I don't even like bi-wiring. Then at the OTL part, I stopped, thinking, "what did he say? That sounds like Outboard Power Supply." Boats never crossed my mind. Sorry, but I had to correct that. Glad you understand.

And, Cheers to You!

Boats never crossed my mind.

Hi Tls49 - here is what gave me
"Outboard" on my mind

What better place to share a great boat motor deal than on an audio speaker forum ?
I bought one yesterday and the audio repercussions for my dealer are I won't be pouncing on that DAC I have been eyeing.
Wemfan - sorry for my off topic post.

Ct0517, congrats on your great deal for the other hobby.

Wemfan, congrats on your great deal for the 801's. As I stated previously, some years ago I had 802's S3. At this time, I was working at a B&W dealer, and we always had 801 S3 on display. The premium amp brand was Threshold/Forte that matched extremely well with the B&W. The "E" series Threshold were the last ones designed by Nelson Pass, and are the most desirable. They rarely come up for sale, and sell quickly unless priced too high. The Forte was a less expensive line by Threshold but still had the same sound character. I have no affiliation with this seller, but IMHO this amp would sound extremely well on your 801's, with the power of the Parasound, but character more like the MC275.

Forte Model 3

The amp has also been serviced about 2 years ago by Jon Soderberg, who worked with Nelson Pass at Threshold. The amp can definitely hold it's own with amps costing much more.

As far as more expensive, a lot of people seem to like McIntosh SS or Pass Labs with B&W.

****The speakers are rated 50 - 600 wpc at 8 ohms. From my experiences
what actual wattages are needed from a capable amp will be based on size
of space, how close you will be sitting to them, the kind of music genre you
will be playing, and how loud. **** - Ct0517

****I recently acquired a Parasound Halo A31 (250 watts per channel) for a
system in a bedroom and hadn't heard it yet. The difference between this
amp and the MAC with the B&Ws was really huge. Of course, the
Parasound added a bunch of really good tight bass slam as you would
expect but the little MAC was no slouch in the bass department either.
What really surprised me was playing Patti Griffin in a very laid back
acoustic track was how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over
the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy.
It is a $3k amp and really not up to what I would want to run through these
speakers. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You
could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have
no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from
each other. **** - Wemfan

Personally, I would not get hung up on the wattage only; within reason, of
course, since you do seem to like your music fairly loud. IMO, the above
comments demonstrate that to a significant extent that is not what will
guarantee satisfying results. You seem to have a clear sense of what
qualities you are looking for in the sound of the system and you mentioned
that you are a musician. Being a musician you are probably very sensitive
to things like subtle instrumental texture, micro dynamics and the kind of
tonal fullness that is not always heard from many audiophile rigs; this is not
meant to slight audiophiles, but is simply about priorities.

Some really good amplifier suggestions so far. But, IMO, short of the very
best, solid state amplification does not excel in the areas mentioned to the
degree that decent tube amps do. But, given your listening habits and your
speakers I think you will need some significant wattage. One amplifier that
comes to mind for your 801's that comes up used fairly regularly and for a
very reasonable price is the VTL 300 mono; lots of power and good
bass control with the classic tube attributes. When you say that the Mac
"simply doesn't have enough horsepower" is it a borderline case
or not even in the ballpark? You describe bass and drums as incredible
with the Mac; you seem to really like the sound. Have you considered
adding a second Mc275 in a vertical biamp arrangement? Might be
enough power and guarantees the sound you already like and probably a
refinement of that. Good luck.

I agree that a second MC275 might be an option, however, it should be identical to the one you currently have. Looking at the Berners McIntosh Site, you can see that there are 9 different versions of the MC275. While some may sound the same, it is well known that some do sound different, especially the original. Also, it would be best to use them configured as mono, and not vertical bi-amp. With the woofer being the most demanding for power, it makes better sense to have 150w on the entire speaker, than to have 75w on the woofer and another 75w on the midrange/tweeter separately. When bi-amping, it is generally recommended to use an active external crossover bypassing internal crossover, which complicates things even more.

IMHO, since you have just acquired the speakers, it would be best to keep things simple for a while in trying to achieve some system synergy. I agree with others that crossover mods should be on the back burner.

Did you ever say what preamp you are using with the MC275?

Excellent points. I was not aware that the MC275 can be easily configured for use in mono (nor that there are nine different versions-yikes!). That makes a second Mac an even more attractive option IMO.

Tls49 posted: "IMHO, since you have just acquired the speakers, it would be best to keep things simple for a while in trying to achieve some system synergy. I agree with others that crossover mods should be on the back burner."

Great advise. Congratulations and enjoy!

When you say that the Mac "simply doesn't have enough horsepower" is it a borderline case or not even in the ballpark?

Frogman
this reminded me of something that I feel is really important regarding the 801 but also the other matrix line as well.
We have already discussed how the speakers were designed to work with the bass alignment filter - aka an equalizer.
The BAF has two benefits and if your amp is borderline SS or Tube - the BAF can only help and this is why.

First - it makes the speaker more efficient. I have had discussions with B&W on this to confirm it. But they don't have the measurements.

Secondly and one of the reasons they become more efficient.
If you play vinyl, much of it has subsonic frequencies recorded in the grooves. The BAF has a 19 hz cutoff.
This means the amp's energy reserve is not wasted playing those sub 19 hz frequencies, making the woofers pump. leaving its power reserve for what you can hear feel above 20hz. In effect giving it more headroom. All speakers benefit from amps which have lots of headroom.

This is why its important for Wemfan or any one else to try to get the most powerful amps they can SS or Tube and not just amp/s that will work for the situation. Too many 801s are just hooked up to HT receivers because it works.

There is a rumble filter on my preamps but I choose not to use them as they are too close to the vinyl source for me. Since the speakers are designed to be used with their own spec'ed out factory filter - this is much different.
When you set up the BAF there are two rows of pins on the circuit board, one for each speaker with 10 pins locations that you set either (on or off) for each matrix speaker 800 - 805.
All 800 series matrix line utilize different pin arrangements per B&W testing.

An observation
When I got the 800's I pulled the woofers and brought them in to get checked out. One of the tests they do is placing the woofers magnet end on the table and hooking it up to a cd that plays a test signal at 20, 25, 30 hz.
This signal is stronger than anything we will ever (or should ever send the woofer) through normal use.
With the test the woofer starts oscillating up and down the cone. This shows if all parts are working properly.

So if your amp is borderline - the BAF will only help you. At first when you hook it up it will seem as though you have made the sound more lean as the 100 hz plateau is removed. This also allows for better positioning in smaller rooms.

Wemfan - are you able to identify music you have with 20-30 hz material in it. if so in your large room there may be enough space,
as ZB said to allow them to bloom without the filter.....

I can recommend a few from last night.

Count Basie - Party
Patricia Barber - Companion
Beatles - Abbey Road - side two
Dead Can Dance - Anastassis
Lorde
Sarah McLachlan - Solace, Fumblin for Ecstasy

Frogman you mentioned VTL - Poster Vegasears uses VTL's.
I know people who use various SS, and Tube. Tube including Push Pull (most common), OTL's and even one that uses a SET with his 801 in a small room. he doesn't listen to music with a lot of bass however.

So the type of music you like to listen to plays a big factor here.

TLS49 - do you recall the type of music you demoed the 801's with when people auditioned them ?

Cheers

When you set up the BAF there are two rows of pins on the circuit board, one for each speaker with 10 pins locations that you set either (on or off) for each matrix speaker 800 - 805.
All 800 series matrix line utilize different pin arrangements per B&W testing.

Switch Pin Settings

-
-

I just came in from the studio listening to the speakers and I really like them. They are very different from the Klipschorns which is what I want. Smooth with a strong low end and good clear mids. After trying both the Parasound and the MAC I can hear that I need a really good SS amp with an appropriate amount of power.

I will hold off on the crossovers as you guys suggest. I am used to guitar amps and they need frequent cap changes if they are to sound right so it made sense to me that a speaker this old would probably need some new caps. I will order some stands soon. How tall would you go? I have been on Ebay checking out the BAF but there were none for sale last I checked. They seem to go from $250-$350. I will get one when I have the opportunity.

Ct0157, The Krells have not been serviced. I just mentioned them because they are here locally and I know nothing about them. I don't plan on using the MC275 or the C2300 with the 801s. I want to go with something different. I listen to vinyl and cds and I very much doubt that I will ever progress beyond that. The cabinets are in good shape...an imperfection here or there but really in clean original condition. Don't apologize for the long post. Your posts are always full of good information and very much appreciated. I read and read them as I do the whole thread.

ELEE, thanks clarifying your advice on the crossovers. I was about to pull the trigger.... now I will wait.

Frogman, I really like things that sound good. I doubt I listen to music the exact same way you guys do since I am a musician and not an audiophile but how music sounds is extremely important to me. I have chased the perfect guitar/amp for my whole career. I routinely tweak on my gear and acquire more (sound familiar?) I have a pretty good vintage guitar/amp collection all acquired in the pursuit of trying to get the best tone. I really like things that sound good. As a musician I am an analog guy. I am a tube amp guy. My newest guitar is a 1966. I have always worked on my music gear and was never knowledgable enough about audio gear to have as good of a system as I always wanted. In the last year or so I have been trying to correct that. I am currently trying to learn and acquire. I want my studio to roll my socks up and down every time I turn something on in there.

Oh, and the MC 275 is not even in the ballpark.

So far, the Forte and the VTL 300 have been suggested. Now that you guys know a little bit more about me and what I am looking for I really need some more suggestions about which amp I need. Remember, I have no idea how to pick one so don't assume I know anything because I really don't. You guys would be surprised how much I learn from your posts.

Keep the advise coming. I really need and appreciate it.

As for amps, I would go for the bigger Pass Labs .8 A/B amps. At least the X350.8. Bryston 28BSST2 might be another consideration, as is the Accuphase P-6100. These are my favorite amps at the moment, and should drive your 801s to the fullest.

****After trying both the Parasound and the MAC I can hear that I need a really good SS amp with an appropriate amount of power. ****

Wemfan, could you elaborate on that comment? Earlier, from your description of the differences between the sound of the Mac and the Parasound, one would get the impression that the Mac sounded much better to you:

**** ..... how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over
the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy. ****

Do you feel that you need a good ss amp because you think that only ss will give you enough power, or because you have changed your mind about preferring ss attributes vs those of tubes?

My recommendation of the VTL was precisely because that is an affordable used alternative that will give you lots of power with good bass control (a typical ss attribute) and, being a tube amp, classic tube attributes like dimensionality and fullness of tone through the midrange. You describe yourself as a "tube guy"; then why ss?

Now, for a bit of unsolicited advise of the kind that is difficult to express and can be misinterpreted; so, I apologize ahead of time:

Remember that you are on an audiophile forum. Audiophiles most certainly also "like things that sound good" and "how music sounds is important" to audiophiles also; that is the nature of the beast. Having said that, it is also true that, generally speaking, musicians tend to give priority to certain sonic attributes. In my experience, and as a musician myself, those tend to be in the areas of midrange (especially lower midrange) fullness and micro dynamics; hence my recommendation of something like the VTL's. As a musician who has been poking around this forum for some time I would encourage you to not dwell too much on the presumed differences between how musicians and audiophiles listen to music; it will ensure the best dialogue and best advise.

Thanks, Dave. I will check those amps out.

Frogman, The MAC did sound much better to me. The Parasound is just not as quality of an amp as the MAC. It has nothing to do with SS VS tubes.
I like tube amps but I also like SS in audio. I am just thinking along ss state lines partially because of power ( more headroom, etc.) but maybe I am wrong? When I said I was a tube guy it was in reference to guitar amps which is a whole different world than stereo gear.

Now to address your "unsolicited advise"... nothing I said could possibly offend anybody but obviously you are the exception. I am the nicest guy you ever met but I never indulge those that are looking for the slightest of reasons to be offended.

Not offended Wemfan, and I did not suggest anyone else would necessarily be offended. It was simply a suggestion based on my own experience. As I said, this is the kind of thing that is difficult to express. If my suggestion offended you, my apology.

I want my studio to roll my socks up and down every time I turn something on in there.

Wemfan - is there a budget range you would like to stay
within to do this?

You're welcome, Wemfan. Another amp would be the Luxman B-1000f monoblock amplifier, but that is quite expensive, I believe. It is rated to go 2000W into 1 Ohm.

I think I am comfortable up to about $5k each for the preamp and amp so a total of $10000. I would like to spend less but i could spend a bit more if I needed to. I spent just under $10000 for my c2300 and MC275 and I am happy with them. I am okay with used as well as new.

I had some Luxman monos at one point and they were good amps. I will check this one out also. Thanks...

Wemfan - $5000 will do it for the amp/s imo.
Here are some thoughts for you since I recently went through this exercise with amp/s - TWO TIMES - in the last 12 months.

First - It is important to run the 801's with the woofer covers removed.
This will help let you know how much they like what is in front of them.
If there is visible woofer pumping going on - cone excursion - there is a problem.
Unlike lesser speaker designs that readily pump by design - and I include the other matrix consumer models 802, 803, 805.... in this statement having owned them;
You should NEVER see cone excursions with the 801's large woofer (even with vinyl) when set up with compatible amp/s and the BAF. This means they are performing at their best - energy is not being wasted on the woofer movement. Much dust collected on the woofers due to this.

When buying amps I usually do research with the amp manufacturers and the specific speaker/s they used to come up with their designs. The targets or reference points. If this information is not available (friends, websites, forums) they "manufacturer" should be contacted.
If the "manufacturer" won't divulge what their reference speakers are - I strike them off my list.
Ensure their speaker references have similar amplifier requirements to your speakers.
Many times we can put two and two together. For example if the manufacturer of the amps and speakers are in the same city - chances are they have worked together. This is a VERY niche and SMALL hobby.

An example of one speaker/amp relationship is my Music Reference RM10 which was designed by Roger Modjeski specifically for his personal Quad 57's.
Sometimes when you bring speaker/amp partners together - the synergy becomes very evident.
There is a relaxed delivery that starts at low volume and continues at high spls.
It is hard to describe but when you hear and feel it - you know it.

I can tell you when I hooked up the Krell FPB600 to the 800's there was synergy.
When I swapped in the
Krell BAF there was even more.
Things kind of fell in place.
Elee's comments earlier about D'Agostino (formerly of Krell) owning the B&W's earlier in his career became evident to me.

Krell FPB600 - 600 wpc 8 ohms, 1200 wpc 4 ohms, 2400 wpc 2 ohms.

Sample Krell

Bass is the foundation of the music for me. Get it right and the rest falls into place.

The 801's are 87db sensitivity not dropping below 5 ohms (50- 600 wpc)
A fairly easy load and the impedance chart posted earlier is not off the charts - like other speakers.
The 800's are 93 db - but are 4 ohms and actually dip below . They are rated for 150-800 wpc.

I can tell you there is so much control and headroom with the 800's. The 801's being an easier load would be even more phenomenal imo with a large Krell in that large studio room of yours.

With that; the best amp candidates imo are the local ones that can be auditioned in your room.
Nothing beats this...
So I would strongly consider an audition of the local Krell 350's you mentioned.
Ask to borrow them for a couple of days.
I would even offer the seller a nominal fee for the privileges this brings you without having to commit to them.
This is a "serious" buyers market. There are approximately 650 amps for sale just on Audiogon right now.
You want to keep the advantage of being the buyer as long as you can.
Once you commit and buy - moving this gear requires ALOT of patience and good pricing if it doesn't work out.

Again I will say I have a lot of respect for those in those in this audio BIZ.

So what other amps are available locally? Can you tell us what retail high end stores are within driving distances to you?

This way we could do a search of their inventory online for you - another option.

There really isn't much choice locally. There is one audio repair shop and that is really it. I would have to go to Dallas or Kansas City to hear any higher end audio equipment and I doubt under those circumstances I could really tell much about what i would be hearing. For me, I need to A/B equipment before I can tell much about it. Even if something sounded good there I would have no idea how it would stack up against my equipment at home. My plans are to take the suggestions here, check out the amps best I can, then make a decision.

Dave 72,

I found a Pass x350 for sale about a hundred miles from me. However, it is not a .8 as you suggested. What do you think?

Wemfan, hopefully you could sense I am a big fan of products from Nelson Pass in my 1st post on 3-29-14. As far as the X350, this is one of the original "X series" introduced, then came the "X.5 series", with the "X.8 series debuting in the last few months. It will be very doubtful to find a "X.8 series" used, and new in the desired power will exceed your stated budget. The "X series" are definitely quality amplifiers, however most agree the "X.5 series" have a lot more musical magic in the midrange. Here is a good review for the Pass Labs X250.5, with the 2nd paragraph noting some differences to the original "X series" design, and definitely read to the end as he rates it above similiar priced amps, and somewhat equal to one much more expensive. IMHO, I would try to find a "X.5 series".

As far as my previous recommendation of the Forte amp, I was thinking of this to get something quickly that would sound good with enough power. Then have more time to look for something like a Pass Labs. The Forte amps are usually an easy sell, however the one I linked to does seem to be priced somewhat high, but I'm sure he's factoring in the recent service by Jon Soderberg, the absolute best for Threshold/Forte.

Wemfan
If pursuing Pass Labs I highly recommend talking to Kent 5308785350 prior to any actual purchase.
He is very friendly, knowledgeable and forthcoming with the information.
I was curious so I gave him a call.
Told him we were considering using an x.350 on 801 matrix in a room 29x29x11.

Some of the speakers currently being tested with at Pass Labs are Sony's SSAR1, Array 1400 and TAD - did not catch the model # of the last one.
When I mentioned the matrix 801's some comments were

"you mean the boxy ones with smaller boxes/pieces on top of one another"

"those were very highly regarded and not difficult to drive at all"

He quickly put the impedance info and room size into his online model.

the amp info I got from him.

x350 was designed around an 8 ohm speaker.
the more current product 350.5 is based on a lower 6 ohm speaker.
the x350 does double down but it does not like it (Kent's words)
Distortion increases. Similarly it would produce half the power at 16 ohms.
He suggested that the x250.5 which is also based on a 6 ohm speaker would be a better choice than the x350.

The 801 matrix as we saw in the impedance graph - dips to 5 ohms in the bass and HF areas.

The rough estimate from Kent is you should be able to hit 105 db peak levels in your room with the x350.

Cheers

Tis49,

That was a good review on the x250.5. That guy was certainly high on it. I will read some more about this amp and seriously consider it. Reading that review sure made me want one and I would be willing to pay $8000 for such a great amp.

CT0517,

So, two votes for the X250.5? Think there would still be some new ones out there? Thanks for calling Kent and sharing what he had to say. So, if it turns out to be a Pass the X250.5 will be it. I don't buy audio amps often so I want to acquire something that i am going to really enjoy for many years to come so, of course, let's up the budget. How about the $10000-$12000 range. From what I can tell in the audio world that really isn't all that expensive and i would like to be under that but I am willing to go that high to get something I am really going to enjoy.

I would also like to consider tube amps. I really like my MC275 through my Klipchs but they were not a good match for the B&Ws. How about something like the MC601s? I like the idea of having mono amps. The stereo amps can get quite heavy. Should I consider Conrad Johnson or Audio Research? Bryston has been suggested and what I have read about them has all been good.

I don't think I will even try the local Krells. No telling how old they are so they may be close to needing service and $4k for them or few thousand more for newer technology and more time until service would be needed sounds like a better way to go to me.

What would you now suggest with the new budget?

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-manley-reference-250w-monoblocks-expertly-serviced-unique-history-2014-03-30-amplifiers-93301

No affiliation with seller.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/manley-labs-reference-240-monoblock-power-amplifier-page-3

I notice these are "reference" amps. What exactly is a reference amp? I see that popping up from time to time. The amps look good and that would certainly be a good price. I will add them to my list. Thanks....

Well, if you're gonna go over $10k, then again the Pass Labs X350.8. And sure, call Pass Labs about it just to be safe.

Also, consider the Parasound JC-1 monos. Those are $9000 (?) retail.

Wemfan, the "Manley Reference" line was VTL's "premium" line while the designer David Manley was still owner of the company. When Manley terminated his affiliation with the company, his son Luke Manley took over the co., and EveAnna Manley developed the Manley line as a separate co. I think I got the history right.

I have owned a pair of Manley Reference 200/100 mono's for many years and can tell you that they are great amps; if you like tubes. Powerful (200w in tetrode mode) reliable, dimensional and full-sounding amps with good bass and that natural midrange quality that only a tube amp gives; IMO. Not as squeaky clean sounding as great solid state amps, but......

Not as squeaky clean sounding as great solid state amps

I recently took my 6 year old digital player and 6 of my CD's to a brick and mortar (B&M) store in Toronto to hear it with a current highly respected DAC. Digital Analog Converter.
The Amp and Preamp were current Pass Labs products.
Speakers were Gerswhin's.
The sound was very squeaky clean. I would not tolerate my digital player for 15 mins in my room like that.

I attributed it to the room /speaker setup and the fact it was digital. I walked away without a clear sense of what is better for me unfortunately. So it just goes to show there is no substitute for audition in your own room.

Frogman - my Krell is anything but squeaky clean sounding. :^)

This short thread is any interesting read - I thought.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1226354800&read

Wemfan.
I was only a messenger on the PassLabs info.
fwiw - that review wasn't very good for me.
maybe I missed it but no room, sitting position info.
Also if any one is interested check the specs on the speakers used in the review. Not surprising imo he uses a sub.
I will post some thoughts later.
cheers

Chris, you're right, I have liked some of the Krells that I have heard very much. I owned the KSA 50 (good but admittedly far from their best) years ago and enjoyed it very much. Still....there's just something about a good tube amp; something that makes music sound closer to real for me. I know all too well that this is a controversial subject, but (just as with the digital/analog debate) there are certain qualities in music that, even as the technologies come closer and closer to each other sound-wise, are still better expressed by one technology (tube/ss) or the other. As we all know no gear is perfect so we have to choose our poison.

BTW, I haven't forgotten about your question re analog /digital in the ET thread. It's going to take some time to get all my thoughts (for whatever they may be worth) down.

My problem is that i just don't have enough experience in listening to good quality stereo amps. I am going to have to make my decision on which amp to acquire based upon recommendations and whatever I learn about how to compare specs. One reservation I did have acquiring the 801s was their low sensitivity.

Frogman, I have heard many great things about Manley amps. They are in the back of my mind. I am currently compiling a list of amps that appeal to me and Manley is on it. Any other suggestions? I do like tubes. My c2300, MC275 and Khorns is a really great sound to me. I can't say just how good it compares to other audiophile equipment but I love to listen to it. It is really an exciting system for me. However, trading out the Klips for the 801s showed me that they are a different animal. A low powered tube amp is not the place to look for these speakers so I am considering a much larger power SS amp. Maybe I should be considering tube? I don't know. Anyway, don't be shy. Tell me what you think. I do plan on acquiring an amp for the 801s very soon.

Dave72, That Parasound has come up in several threads. It appears to be something special. In the last day or two i have been learning all i can about Pass labs. Soon I am going to take a good look at the Parasound. Thanks.

Ct0517, Your posts are always most welcome. Please post some thoughts. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do.

Please post some thoughts. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do.

Wemfan
no problem I can do that.
first if you can answer a couple questions that would help guide the recommendation.

Hypothetical situation

Lets say you have had a long day and need to unwind in your studio.
Its wasn't a bad day per say; which usually puts me in the wrong frame of mind to want to listen to music.
So a productive but long day; and now to help you stabilize (release those endorphin's) you need to hear those vibes from your favorite music.

1) Can u name a sampling of six albums/selections you are going to go for in this situation. Maybe Patti Griffin that you mentioned earlier is one ?

2) Assuming you still have the 10 foot Equilateral triangle layout ? What volume will you play the music at:

a) Low volume that allows for conversation with a friend.
b) Medium volume 75-80-85 db not including music peaks.(Doctors say our ears are ok for 8 hours a day at 80db)
c) Higher volume. 90 db average up - time to get up and do some dancing in the room. (Maybe you are having a party in your studio one day)

3) Of the music selections do any of them fall within the medium or high volume level most of the time ?

This info helps me with a recommendation. Look forward to hearing some selections.
Cheers

Frogman you have a way with words to describe sound so I look forward to your description of analog vs digital on the ET2 thread.

Also I like how Elee described the difference between stock and Northcreek crossovers.

Regarding the NC crossover upgrade, I would probably wait a while. IMHO, they make a difference, but again, it is a shade difference, not a primary color difference.

He painted a picture for me with his words.

You're welcome, Wemfan. The Parasound is a solid contender and is great bang for the buck (in high end terms.) There really isn't anything wrong with it. It's a very good set of amps.

The Pass Labs, however, is something special, imo. It does cost more than the Parasounds, but I will say it's worth it, especially this new .8 series. From reading on other forums, just about everyone who has bought a .8 series amp has been very satisfied with the sound, and feel it is better than the older .5 series.

****A low powered tube amp is not the place to look for these speakers so I am considering a much larger power SS amp. Maybe I should be considering tube? I don't know. Anyway, don't be shy. Tell me what you think.****

OK, I won't be shy, and in doing so I obviously show my own biases; so keep that in mind.

I still don't understand why you make the leap to assuming that, while preferring the sound with the Mac, simply because the Mac doesn't have enough power ("not even in the ballpark"), you need to go to a ss amp. I think that the pertinent questions and answers are found in one of your previous comments:

****Frogman, The MAC did sound much better to me. The Parasound is just not as quality of an amp as the MAC. It has nothing to do with SS VS tubes.
I like tube amps but I also like SS in audio. I am just thinking along ss state lines partially because of power ( more headroom, etc.) but maybe I am wrong? When I said I was a tube guy it was in reference to guitar amps which is a whole different world than stereo gear.****

I would not assume that it has nothing to do with SS vs tubes. I think it has everything to do with that. Here's why, and I will try to give you some background for why I am saying that:

I am very familiar with the sound of your Mac amp. I recently almost killed a friend for trading in a pair of them and his C20 tube pre to a local dealer for a Mac ss integrated which we both now agree doesn't sound nearly as good, but is convenient as hell and is "new". I also had this same friend's Levinson 23.5 amp for a few days which I almost bought; but didn't, since the experience served to, once again, show me that it really is an apples/oranges comparison (ss/tube-Levinson/Manley). I have also heard my Manleys in his system replacing the Macs.

I don't know the sound of the Parasound, but I just read several on-line reviews of it (for whatever that is worth) and it appears to be fairly well regarded for its sound; one reviewer compares it to a Krell and a Levinson both in the $10,000 range and claims that the Parasound can hold its own. Now, I have owned enough ss and tube amps over the years to know that this type of review can only tell you so much. However, the conclusion that I can come to with a fair amount of certainty (for me) and based on my experiences is that both your Mac and the Parasound are, in fact, roughly of equal quality compared to the best of each respective technology (tube/ss). So, IMO, it is not true that the "Parasound is just not the same quality as the Mac". I would say that they are and what you are hearing is, in fact, the intrinsic differences between ss and tubes. Differences that will be there even as you move up the quality ladder to more expensive amps. So, since you can get more than enough power with a more powerful tube amp, then why go to ss? IMO, and in spite of all the claims that the two technologies are getting closer and closer sound wise (they are), there are still certain differences in how each technology reproduces music that will be there no matter how much you spend. You have to pick your poison. And, BTW, if you like tube guitar amps because of their sound, there are definitely parallels to the issue of their sound in stereo playback.

Here is what I would do, and I am now going to contradict my earlier comments about the musician thing (and apologies again for that). First, you have to level the playing field. You have two amps of (IMO) roughly equal quality; one ss and one tube. You need to use both with speakers on which the difference in POWER will be fairly insignificant due to the speaker's efficiency: the Klipschorns. Then spend time with each amp on the K's and work on your music and pay attention to not only how long it takes you to learn certain songs or guitar solos; and, just as importantly how much fun you are having doing so. Does one amp seem to facilitate the process? Does one amp let you hear some subtle expressive quality in a guitar player's phrasing that the other amp obscures? Don't rush the process and switch back and forth between the two amps on the K's. I believe that after a short time certain patterns will start to reveal themselves and one amp will reveal itself as superior; and which technology is better FOR YOU. Good luck.

CT0517, I never do anything the same way twice. I also listen to a large variety of music which is constantly changing. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud, I listen not so loud. There is no average with me. I go through periods where I listen a lot and periods where I don't. I never warm up my equipment. I walk in,flip a switch, listen for who knows how long, shut everything off then leave. There is no usual with me. I usually have 3 different stereos set up at the same time.

Frogman, I said this particular Parasound is not as good as the MAC. This Parasound is around $2000 new in stereo ( mine is the three channel) while the MC275 is close to $5000 new. I don't think that is comparing apples to apples. In general I lean towards tubes but with these low sensitive speakers I am also considering SS. I may start a thread on the amp forum and see what the guys who frequent there suggest. I need a good match for the B&Ws and I am not sure what that is. Hopefully it will become clear eventually.

Dave, I like what I have read about the Pass amps and i like the way they look. They are darned expensive, though. If I go SS I will be looking at the Pass amps. I will call the guy Ct0517 suggested and talk to him first.

Hi Wemfan

Due to your large room and the following comments.

I never do anything the same way twice. I also listen to a large variety of music which is constantly changing. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud, I listen not so loud. There is no average with me. I go through periods where I listen a lot and periods where I don't. I never warm up my equipment.

I have found that with both tubes and SS a warm up helps. My tube pre-amp absolutely needs minimum one hour warm up. Says so right in the manual too.

Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do.

Acquire a High Pass BAF as it will free "whatever" amp you get from subsonic frequencies. Eliminate woofer pumping. This will lower distortion and make the window of music clearer. It will also boost the lows as designed and give you tonal balance. This is more noticeable with SS I have found.

I need a good match for the B&Ws and I am not sure what that is.

I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud

Lets first understand I have made my 801 s3 that I have owned for going on 20 years soon work really great with tubes (PP and special OTL) but not in a room your size; and SS in both smaller and larger rooms.
For a plug and play approach I am going back to recommending an already recapped Krell amp/s and this is the reason to cut to the chase.
Its a fact. - that the older Krell stuff has synergy with the Matrix 800 Series Line.
So much so that they - KRELL - produced their own High Pass BAF for the Matrix line as discussed here.
They actually also produced a Krell version of crossovers to run with the four separate cross over drivers on the 800 matrix as well.
This holds a lot of weight for me.
They understood how the speakers work and were meant to be run.
So they are ONE option.

Lets finish with an analogy.

Lets imagine you work for a boss that loves his wine, a serious wine connoisseur.
He has invited you to his house for a wine tasting party, and asked that you bring a favorite bottle of wine.
Now lets assume you do have the occasional glass of wine; but you are a beer drinker yourself.
So your knowledge of wines is limited leaving you feeling a little unsure.
You find out from a co-worker that your boss really loves his red wine;
but also learn that his lovely wife prefers white wine.
What do you bring over ?

Easy - You bring over a bottle of red and a bottle of white.

Where am I going with this? Well you said earlier.

How about the $10000-$12000 range.

So another consideration with a $10k budget. A $5000 (ss ) amp now and another $5000 (tube) amp later.

Remember to keep this fun, hope this helps and enjoy the journey.
The Krell 600 will make your socks roll up and down in your studio - no matter where you are located in it.
Whatever amp you choose it needs to become the alpha over the woofers for best sonics in a room that large.
It needs to have total control - this means it needs to stay in cruise mode for its capabilities on the peaks.
Not approaching limits.

Ok cool, Wemfan, you're on the right path.

Very good post, Ct0517. You have me again thinking about those local Krell 350mcx monos. I can bring them home for a test drive and I will look up the Krell 600 as soon as I finish this post. What tube pre do you suggest for the Krell amps?

I will acquire the BAF filter as soon as I can locate one. Thanks for stressing the importance of it.

I will keep it fun and I am enjoying learning something about audio. I have acquired several new pieces lately and I am enjoying it all. Adding the two Mac pieces increased the quality of my system dramatically. I am taking some good steps forward and enjoying every minute of it. I really do appreciate everyones input. It is a bit hard for someone as ignorant about audio equipment as i am but I am getting better. It is starting to sort out for me. I am getting familiar with some of the gear out there. Now, to look up that Krell 600...

Wemfan, I think you missed my point. Your Parasound, based on the info I have read, is $3000 and is generally considered a solid performer. If I wasn't clear: my point was simply that if you compare your Mac to what the best tube amps have to offer, you might find that it is probably about as far from that as what your Parasound offers relative to the best solid state amps; so, much of the difference that you are hearing is the intrinsic differences in sound between the two technologies. As someone who considers himself a "tube guy", you may want to focus on what exactly that means to you. More importantly, and especially for someone who admits to "not knowing much" about this stuff, it's important to remember that price is not necessarily the best determinant of ultimate quality. To my way of thinking, if you prefer the sound of tubes, trying a tube amp with adequate power is the next logical step.

Which brings me to the subject of money. You have jumped to considering amps in the $10-12,000 range!! In all lack of shyness, my advise at this point is to take a deep breath and slow things down. Building a truly satisfying system, as has been suggested many times so far, is about balance and synergy (of various sorts). Ultimately, all the well-meaning advise that we can offer you cannot replace the homework that all experienced audiophiles have done by way of trying different gear and forming one's own sense of what "synergy" means in the context of your own sonic priorities. Good luck.

The Krells are no slouches. Definitely give them a try. What do you have to lose?

Hi Wemfan

I will acquire the BAF filter as soon as I can locate one. Thanks for stressing the importance of it.

I have a BAF available - if you are not able to source one I can sell one. You can contact me at

bcpguy(at)bell(dot)net

if interested.

What tube pre do you suggest for the Krell amps?

If a tube pre as long as the outputs have capacitors coupled to them.

What are you looking to improve on with your current preamp? Any problems with it ?

I would keep it for now and not change it out until after you hear how it sounds with the amp/s you're thinking of getting.