It’s all a big scam at a certain level.
Cannot find perfect sound
I've been listening to supposedly some of the finest speakers that currently exist. These include b&w 800 Series, revel high end, vivid audio, Psi audio and kef blades.
None except the kef blades satisfied my high level standards.
When I play my reference tracks on cheap earbuds I hear timing accuracy that is missing on all the above speakers. Only the kef blades came closest to what I hear from cheap earbuds.
Explanations please?
I really suspect that none of these high end speakers are accurately reproducing the sound on my CDs despite all the marketing claims about accuracy and high quality sound.
What could there possibly be that my cheap earbuds can do that eludes these super high end speakers?
I'm not so eager anymore to spend any money until I have a good explanation.
None except the kef blades satisfied my high level standards.
When I play my reference tracks on cheap earbuds I hear timing accuracy that is missing on all the above speakers. Only the kef blades came closest to what I hear from cheap earbuds.
Explanations please?
I really suspect that none of these high end speakers are accurately reproducing the sound on my CDs despite all the marketing claims about accuracy and high quality sound.
What could there possibly be that my cheap earbuds can do that eludes these super high end speakers?
I'm not so eager anymore to spend any money until I have a good explanation.
147 responses Add your response
Amp amp amp. Your headphone amp can produce a very clean signal because its in the low wattage domain. It is significantly more difficult to make a high powered amp. Paul Klipsch once said years ago "What this country needs is a good one watt amp" Portables have another thing going for them is that they have a dedicated power supply. The acoustics are also controlled. For me headphone listening is not as pleasurable. Even though the accuracy is there I think your body needs to feel the sound waves to be convincing. |
@kenjit wrote: "Mids are easy to absorb." Sufficient absorption to make a significant difference in the mids will totally kill any in-room energy in the highs. That’s the problem with relying on absorption to fix a problem in the mids - you get overabsorption of all shorter wavelengths. I believe that a room problem in the mids often originates as a speaker problem in the mids (perhaps excess off-axis upper midrange energy) and the such problems are most effectively addressed at the speaker level. Earbuds of course have zero contribution from room reflections. Such reflections are inevitable in a room but can be minimized by nearfield listening, and/or rendered beneficial by making sure they are spectrally correct and don’t arrive to early relative to the first-arrival sound. "On the other hand, high end speakers may have a super flat response and low distortion but the timing is all wrong." IF the off-axis response is not flat, and if you are not in a nearfield setup, then the response that you hear is not flat. The on-axis quasi-anechoic frequency response only tells part of the story, and imo it does not tell the biggest part. Full-range electrostatics (most Quads, most SoundLabs) might be worth checking out. I’m fairly familiar with the SoundLabs (was a dealer for many years), and while not inexpensive, imo they do the kinds of things you are looking for very well. For instance, SPL falls off more slowly with distance from a line source (-3 dB per doubling of distance) than from a point source (-6 dB per doubling of distance). So SoundLabs maintain nearfield conditions much further back into the room than a point-source speaker does. This minimal change in SPL with distance gives the SoundLabs an unusually realistic "feel" because the soundfield where you sit is more consistent, like the soundfield would be if you were attending a live performance. (And you can sit nearfield if you need to - I had a customer who sat close enough to his SoundLabs that he could learn forward and touch them. Because the change in SPL with distance was so small, there was no "head in a vice" effect either.) Since their radiation patterns are exceptionally uniform up and down the spectrum, the room’s contributions will be spectrally correct as long as you don’t overdo the absorption. The radiation pattern is narrow enough to virtually eliminate early reflections, assuming you can pull the speakers out into the room about five feet in front of the wall and toe them in somewhat. Last but not least, they use a single ultralight diaphragm to reproduce the entire spectrum, kinda like a giant earbud. Duke dealer/manufacturer |
Low power has its advantages. I think that’s true. Low power is one of the many advantages of going the portable CD player route. Portable I.e., low power, means no big transformers, no interconnects and no big speaker cables, all of which produce distortion and noise. Going portable also eliminates power cords, fuses and dirty AC power. |
I wanted what I get via my Rudistor RPX-22Mk2 headamp and Sennheiser HD800 phones. What got me there was replacing all he duplex to and in my system with Furutech GTX-D. The detail clarity and speed is now right there with the phones. SO my suggestion to the op is do some high end duplex for your setup. |
I also found that that there must be synergy between electronics and speakers. I was ready to toss my speakers until I made a slight upgrade in amplification and a brand switch. My mid-fi Paridigms sounded night and day better switching from Rotel separates to an entry level Arcam integrated. I don't think there's a huge difference in build or component quality, they're just voiced differently. The Arcam complemented the speakers better. |
jdub071 You are right, you can damage your ear drum in those so heavy non musical noisy live show. We have only two ears and it is important to realy take care to them. |
Green mountain audio are not worth being mentioned in this discussion. The green mountain audio speakers were the most recent speakers I bought and they were nowhere near the level of speakers like the kefs. The green mountains sound cold, there's no bass and I hear midrange resonances. I'm surprised some people can't hear these things. |
You likely have a hearing problem. There is no way cheap ear buds sound good. I have Shure IEM that cost $1500 and they sound fantastic for IEM but they can’t begin to compete with speakers because the sound is all in my head and it just sounds artificial because it is artificial as there are no reflections from the environment around me. Possibly something relating to the pinea which is bypassed by an ear bud. Possibly a restricted swollen or infected outer ear canal - the ear bud may open the passage slightly. Possibly hearing loss in certain frequency ranges that favour a cheap ear bud with it’s highly uneven frequency response vs an audiophile grade speaker. Your brain may have difficulty sorting out reflections from the primary sound - this is a very common hearing disorder with older people who have trouble hearing in noisy restaurants - usually one ear or both ears are not functioning correctly and focusing on the sound from a person close to you at the table becomes a concentration challenge and can be fatiguing. The background sound seems to overwhelm you. The brain/ear uses a complex system involving both ears to deal with and effectively filter ambient reflected energy which can typically be 40% of the sound that reaches the ear in any enclosed space like a room. Strangely enough, the reflected energy adds to the enjoyment of music and allows more details to be discerned - provided of course the ear/brain can sort out all the complexity arriving at the ear drum. There is no other sensible plausible physical explanation for your unusual preference. I mean this in a kind way - it is better to be aware of the real problem (the obvious issue) rather than be misled by “phase” and other impossibly ridiculous explanations for such an unusual preference. |
Many, many audiophiles have some hearing loss. I did not get many answers in another thread when I asked “when was the last time you had a hearing test?”. Many people obsess over quality speakers, amps, sources, power cords and the list goes on without knowing about thier own ability to hear well and all the psychology one must understand about one likes or does not like about sound. |
@shadorne I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I did not say I preferred cheap earbuds over expensive speakers. If that was the case, there would be no need to buy speakers and I could just continue using the cheap earbuds. What I did say is that I could not hear the timing accuracy I hear from earbuds in these speakers. And it's not just earbuds I've tried other cheap headphones and I hear the exact same timing accuracy despite differences in frequency response. I also hear major resonances from many high end speakers which the reviewers seem to ignore. Even my PMC speakers have horrific resonances. Despite this, they were highly regarded by all the studio engineers. There is some logic in saying that earbuds do not suffer cabinet resonances the same way speakers do since there is no cabinet or huge vibrations from headphones. Hearing loss is a valid point but it's not the answer I'm looking for. My hearing is not perfect but I'm not completely deaf either. I can still appreciate certain differences that are real. What about the fact that I enjoyed the kef blades? If you check stereophile you'll see that they're super flat both on and off axis and near state of the art measurements and some of the lowest cabinet resonances I've seen. Hearing loss does not explain my preference for that. And by the way the kefs were good but not perfect. |
Personally, I'd do something that seems anathema on this group: get sophisticated professional audiometric testing. Wayyyy cheaper than $15K speakers, and probably gives useful information that might inform your future decisions. I found my tests to be disturbing, but also economically useful in guiding my gear choices. I've got great gear, but spending more on newer, spendier, more extreme stuff will only deplete my checking account and lead to further acoustic frustrations. My issues are biologic, not electronic. I guarantee I am not the only one on this list. Just saying... |
I'm sad that there's no way to react to posts here. Regardless, I agree strongly with those here who point to the listening room as the likely source of the OP's failure to find a loudspeakers + room system that delivers satisfying temporal accuracy. I seriously doubt that any PMC loudspeakers have "horrific" resonances. Seriously! However, many, many rooms have modes that produce huge peaks and suckouts. Some loudspeaker designs interact less with the room than others; however, none will completely overcome a poor room. A simple $3.5k pair of Fritz Carrara BE, for example, will render mind blowing accuracy in timing in a thoughtfully set up room. Same goes for the other fine loudspeakers cited here. Anyone who's genuinely interested in experiencing great sound from loudspeakers must be willing to do the work required in the room. |
"Anyone who's genuinely interested in experiencing great sound from loudspeakers must be willing to do the work required in the room." Good point. If the goal is indeed "perfect sound", consider how much effort goes into the acoustics of a good recital hall, wherein the unamplified voices and instruments naturally start out projecting "perfect sound". What might make the most sense is engaging the services of a professional acoustician. Let me suggest Jeff Hedback, a many-times award-winning acoustician who is still affordable. http://www.hdacoustics.net/ I have stopped trying to armchair quarterback the acoustic treatment of people's rooms after witnessing how much better job a professional acoustician can do. Simply adding absorption to a room is like randomly adding resistance to a crossover. Just as a crossover calls for the right amounts of inductance or capacitance or resistance in the right places, so too in our rooms call for the right amounts of diffusion or reflection or absorption in the right places. Duke |
It's so funny you guys are all trying to 'fix' this guy... So there's no perfect sound - even the real thing is not 'perfect' I know I face the pitfalls of live music ALL THE TIME even purely acoustic. So audio is a mirror to the soul - what are you really trying to prove here? It's a path of self expression from another's self expression - this ain't like math or something - its all fuzzy. Can you find a path for happiness or are you setting yourself and all of us up for failure anyway? There's plenty of jaw dropping sound out there, is just not obvious and on the surface in this day and age. Are you willing to do the walking? Or is there something underlying this all... Think about it. Many times the best for you is what you do with your own hands without listening to all the noise of other people's viewpoints. Your work tailored by your own biases and viewpoints. A LOT of people have found this out. Think about it, that's where all this 'hifi' started anyway... |
Here I am, 'OM' coming from speakers... I though of an experiment for you: Take those speakers you're disappointed with and put them outside somewhere you can - along with some version of your gear you can move. Don't get too wound up about the techie stuff... You will be blown away. It's ILLUMINATING Don't get too tripped up from the loss of bass but listen to the midrange 'timing' or 'pacing' you're complaining about.... on high end speakers I bet the resonances and smearing you hear are GONE. Speakers in this day and age typically aren't the problem now adays... |
Wait for PS Audio's new line of speakers to come out and make an effort to listen. Paul seems to be keying in on the areas you are griping about. There is no perfect speaker, not even headphones. You have to find the ones that best reproduce music the way you like and want. The only way to do it is to listen. Rooms make a huge difference. |
@enliten - I agree with what you are saying. After reading all 80+ responses, my conclusion is that the OP pretty much has made up his mind that he will never find a pair of “perfect” speakers, and seems to have a rebuttal for every suggestion! Experiencing music reproduction in one’s own listening space with one’s own gear is a unique set up and no amount of listening in stores or other’s rooms is an indicator. OP’s focus on this so called “timing” is stressing him out, and he’s missing the joy of just simply listening to music he enjoys. |
"Cannot find perfect sound" And you never will! It's all an illusion, but get rid of the basic problems and much reward is possible. Timing issues can be largely removed by using a full range speaker.I have heard Lowther, can't remember the model, sound spectacular on Open Baffle, augmented with OB servo bass and a Raal tweeter introduced at about 10Khz. Using just a single capacitor in series with the tweeter will do no damage to the timing. This represents a first order crossover, the least offensive, also the ear is not sensitive to phase shift at such high frequencies. The OB servo bass has phase adjustment built in to the supplied plate amps so no problem there. Get ready to ditch the earbuds. There are other fullrange drivers to consider including some expensive field coil versions. I am content with my ancient Tannoy MG15's |
Lol; Poor Guy....... I said the same thing The new stuff is SO bright, now days You hear everything that is not “ just right” Plus, they play it so frickin loud When , I upgraded one component at a time, I always went to my Grado headphones as the “ reference “ to compare it to. They do everything right. Anyway , Now my headphones sound “ ok” and my setup is much better Who would have thought ? Speaker -Amp combo is the most important part of chain to get right for the long haul You need to go to a Audio show and hit all the rooms to find out “ what you like “ first. Ie AXPONA etc Start with some cheaper “ soft dome” speakers vs all the hyper resolving, hyper expensive ; then make changes Or better yet , find an audio buddy who has it done already My guess you’ve not heard it done right.. If your into 80’s rock it will never sound good on the good stuff Jeff |
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Hmmm, Don't know where you live, if you go to RMAF I'll be there Friday for sure. I'll leave a card at Paul's room (PS audio). I gotta meet ya, let's hang out. I'm really curious what you're trying to get to - bring your buds! We can go listen to live stuff around Denver and at the show. Paul REALLY has a lot of insite too for sure - he's a fantastic guy. Maybe Dave Slagle will be there - shows up once in a while - or not. He's got an interesting insite for sure. I'm considered a 'Subject Matter Expert' for Navy sonar - been at it for years. Know my way around the physics of sound and minored in psychoacoustics @ .Purdue. Perhaps I can take a whack at this... Those buds may have come from ancient astronauts.... |
This thread is maddening!! I been yelling at the screen, reading everybody WAY overthinking and over engineering this guy’s dilemma. It seems that he simply hears an "immediacy" from earbuds that he’s not getting from loudspeakers in a room. While I do not like earbuds... one can become accustomed to that sound. I fear we have an entire generation of young people that have grown up with earbuds, and they think earbuds sound "normal". Earbuds have become the reference of a generation. That, said, I also agree that many audiophile speakers lack immediacy and dynamic excitement. (is that what OP means by timing?). For that you need to go with high efficiency speakers.... HORNS... Tannoys, or maybe Zu Audio speakers? Are resonances more the problem?.... then maybe try electrostatics or big ribbons like Martin Logans or Magnepans. Of course the ROOM plays a large role, but clearly, the typical little round cones in a wooden box aren’t doing it for the OP, so time to try different types of designs.
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Hi..ol' fart chipping-in (digital front end.) :) So many variables at play to simplify much advice. I like full body contact in music. My line is..headphones, ear-buds etc are akin to.."solo sex or making a meal of appetizers..pretty good at the time, but not very satisfying in the end." I've elected near-field with sealed Salk monitors atop of good subs in a smaller space. My friend has large corner Tannoys placed away from corners in a large space that also gives "point source" benefits to a large space. I recently heard the self-powered KEF LS50s that are gratifyingly good given a good source for reasonable money. For MUSIC...lovely mid-range without the great chase for top/bottom extremes, an appropriate to the room sized pair of Harbeths driven by, say, the post anniversary McIntosh MC275 might be a "sail into the sunset" pairing. Even order harmonics to all! Pinthrift (Norm) |
I think I know exactly what you mean, kenjit. I think there are certain things or sets of things, within the range of audio characteristics that some of us listen for more intently than others, and vice versa for other fans of audio of a different stripe. So within that overall range of performance characteristics there can be some disagreement as to what trades one may be willing to make to achieve greater perfection in one’s strongest areas of desire. In my particular case, I have always been thrilled with the palpability of sound, particularly quite transient sounds, when reproduced by devices capable of maintaining above average temporal alignment of information. Earbuds, while they might be found deficient in other areas, can do this time alignment business with ease. As to speakers, long ago I was relatively pleased with panel types. Magnepan and then Martin Logan electrostats. Ended up moving on for other reasons. Moved on more than 20 years ago to Thiel, 3.6s and then 3.7s. So I do agree with any number of above commenters suggesting you concentrate on these types of speakers. An interesting story of the type arose out of my last visit to an audio show. Through my long career I have moved in fits and starts. Going through a year or so frenzy of a few upgrades then to sit back for a LONG period of just enjoying the listening. In one of those long periods I attended a show. My attitude was one of relaxed interest where I was inviting myself to explore things outside my normal envelope of interest and see what I heard w/o paying much attention to the particular products, many of which I was not too familiar with, having been “out of it” for a while. I was also at the time paying a lot of attention to a family semi-crisis unfolding by texts and emails. I wandered into one room and took a good listening seat in front of some speakers I recognized in appearance but honestly and distractedly did not right away place to any one manufacturer. My attention was momentarily drawn back to my phone for some of those texts/emails. As I listened with only part of my mind, I rather rapidly came to realize I was hearing things that, to me, were sounding exceptionally good. After I brought more of my focus back—well of course… I was sitting in front of some of Richard Vandersteen’s best units—with good time coherence being one of his areas of devotion. Good luck!! Cheers, John |
@twoleftears It's unfortunately various frequencies all the way from bass up to 1.5khz. By resonance I mean certain notes will have too much energy which will be heard when you play a track that has that note on it. It's basically coloration. The transmission line is supposed to magically absorb all the mids leaving just the bass according to PMC. I don't believe it. |
I have the PMC TB2. Different model to your floorstanders. But based on my experience with these I'm not inclined to try any other models. I think they all suffer the same issues. Thats partly what hifi is about. Different people like different coloration hence there are hundreds of options out there. I can't live with any kind of coloration. Thats the problem. |
