I think one because they are probably a centimetre from your ear drum and two they are blasting may100 db as well and maybe they have damaged your eardrums so much that you now can't differentiate good from bad. Them earbuds'll do it every time.
Cannot find perfect sound
I've been listening to supposedly some of the finest speakers that currently exist. These include b&w 800 Series, revel high end, vivid audio, Psi audio and kef blades.
None except the kef blades satisfied my high level standards.
When I play my reference tracks on cheap earbuds I hear timing accuracy that is missing on all the above speakers. Only the kef blades came closest to what I hear from cheap earbuds.
Explanations please?
I really suspect that none of these high end speakers are accurately reproducing the sound on my CDs despite all the marketing claims about accuracy and high quality sound.
What could there possibly be that my cheap earbuds can do that eludes these super high end speakers?
I'm not so eager anymore to spend any money until I have a good explanation.
None except the kef blades satisfied my high level standards.
When I play my reference tracks on cheap earbuds I hear timing accuracy that is missing on all the above speakers. Only the kef blades came closest to what I hear from cheap earbuds.
Explanations please?
I really suspect that none of these high end speakers are accurately reproducing the sound on my CDs despite all the marketing claims about accuracy and high quality sound.
What could there possibly be that my cheap earbuds can do that eludes these super high end speakers?
I'm not so eager anymore to spend any money until I have a good explanation.
147 responses Add your response
Could it be that the rooms you are listening to these speakers in are problematic? Treating a room well is very hard, and needs to be adjusted for each speaker. Frankly I’ve never been to a dealer or heard at a show a real well set up room. Dealers tend to be full of excess junk (for example multiple sets of speakers aka resonators, Linn knew this back in the 80s) and don’t get me started on how bad shows are ... In ear headphones (I have Campfire Andromeda’s) can be great and do some things it’s very hard for large speakers to equal. My suggestion is to buy a cheaper (maybe smaller) set of speakers for the time being and then really work on the room to make them sound the best. It’s certainly worked for me. My current speakers, while not cheap, represent less than 10% of my system cost. Too many seem to think big and expensive speakers is the way to go and over stress the room or expose upstream issues. |
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I think imperfect rooms and/or setup may be undermining what you're hearing, and maybe the Blade's opposing, side-firing woofers may have been helping them couple better to the room. I have two potential suggestions. One is to go to a dealer that employs some kind of room/speaker correction technology (i.e. Lyngdorf, etc.) to see if that does it for you. Lots of folks here are praising what the Lyngdorf integrateds are doing in their systems. The other thought is -- if you haven't already -- to go listen to some time- and phase-coherent speakers (i.e. Vandersteen) to see if that clicks for you. Past that, Brit speakers like ATC, Linn, etc. tend to be PRaT focused so they might have something to offer too. That's all I got. Best of luck. |
@tomcy6 Because I'm talking about a specific part of the sound not the overall sound. The earbuds may get the time cohesion correct but may suffer from high distortion or other unwanted features. On the other hand, high end speakers may have a super flat response and low distortion but the timing is all wrong. I think this is why I'm hearing differences. Earbuds may also have less coloration than a big box which can vibrate. Earbuds do not have a crossover. They are time perfect. This could the key difference but there's no way to prove it. The kef blades are based on trying to achieve a perfect point source. Maybe that's why they sounded closest to the earbuds? |
You could be on the right track with this reasoning, but I warn you, this kind of dissatisfaction is what led me to break down and design my own speakers around active crossovers, because I knew I could never really find what I wanted in existing speakers. But, honestly I can tell you from experience that this would be Beast project for most people to undertake, and that finally winding up on top of all that could take you years...it's daunting to me even now that I've done it, so if you find yourself contemplating such a thought, I think you should try to eliminate every other possibility first. I might start with placement. |
You know that there is a wide spectrum of people that enjoy audio. I know people that dance when they hear a song on a supermarket speaker and others that sit still and take in all the qualities of the same recording alone in a chair in a perfect triangle to the speakers with $100,000 worth of cables and little bowls carefully placed all around the room. No one is better than the other if you feel the music in your soul. Different sure, educational, maybe, waste of time, probably. To each his own. |
When I play my reference tracks on cheap earbuds I hear timing accuracy that is missing on all the above speakers. I have no idea what this even means? Is that the only differences you hear? What system are you using to drive them? Sorry but I have no idea what you are hearing or would want to hear to make any sort of recommendation or provide advise. Happy Listening. |
@kenjit didn’t say bass modes were easy to fix, far from it, but that the problems you describe sound more like mid and high reflections and resonances that screw up accurate reproduction of the details of the acoustic event. Nth degree attention to detail of simple fixes is needed to clear these up, including all manner of vibration control on the components as well |
So I have a(t least one) question: How far are you from your speakers? And are you listening in stereo or something else? You're comparing your audio system - source & amplification, speakers and room - to an "in your ear" presence. In many ways that seems to be two totally different worlds (or universes). One way to address that might be to move your listening position up to be closer and maybe almost between your front/stereo pair. I'm not saying that will solve the world's problems but for you it might level the playing and listening field and then you can decide which you like more. And for one last thing - you questioned (or suspected) that none of the high-end speakers were living up to claimed specs. Do you have readings or similar data on how that gear is performing in your listening environment? Just askin'... |
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I’m glad bigkids agrees. I have no idea what you mean by timing accuracy. My best guess is that you’re listening to a system that isn’t set up well at all. Are the speakers at least equidistant from the back and side walls and out into the room the distance you are from the back wall when listening? Toed in equally? I feel like the fundamentals of speaker and listener positioning are missing from the system you are listening to. |
Perhaps my opinion on a listening experience is completely different than most but I don't think earbuds even approach the acoustical realism of live music like speakers are capable of delivering. Earbuds immerse you in sound and some may absolutely love that but to me that's not the way you hear music live when it's played on a stage in front of you. I seek the acoustical realism of a live stage and others want to be immersed 360 degrees. Neither is the "correct" answer....it's whatever pleases you. |
Sound from earbuds tends to sound very coherent and time aligned becuase the driver emulates a point source within the ear. Whereas the geometry of how the sound from multiple driver speakers arrives finally at the ear varies greatly. Some speaker designs like Thiel, Vandersteen, Ohm and others are designed to address these issues and deliver more coherent sound to the ears, others, even some fairly pricey choices, less so. Good ones might make up for that with other strengths. |
Earbuds need "room conditioning" to work properly or the sound just bounces around in there. Have your doctor or anybody good with tweezers put some tiny bass traps in your ear canals along with tiny rugs and furniture...A wet wool hat also helps control the dreaded "skull resonance," although that's extremely uncomfortable, and a football helmet with bricks attached works really well also...you do what you gotta do... |
(((When I play my reference tracks on cheap earbuds I hear timing accuracy that is missing on all the above speakers.))) Earbuds and most decent headphones radiate Plus and Minus + - in the same direction as the pulse of a microphone that picked up the music or live recording\ When you hear this you say it is accurate or natural to you. Some very successful loudspeakers designers agree with you that phase matters. Could it be that since most conventional loudspeakers are wired with some drivers 180 degrees out of sync with others ignoring phase becomes the distraction for you and your music?????????? if you haven't already -- go listen to some time- and phase-coherent speakers (i.e. Vandersteen) properly set up to see if that clicks for you. Ditto Mapman above Best, JohnnyR |
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Room acoustics are the usual solution, but you have a tautology here. You define your "high level standards" by cheap earbuds. Our standards are not actually set in stone. Whatever you spend years listening to is what your ear brain mechanism will determine to be correct. My guess is, if I’m right, you are listening to the wrong brands. Try out Dali and the latest Paradigm with the Be mids. Also get out more and listen to live music Participate and give to a music school or public radio station. |
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Can't compare speakers to headphones--headphones are a pain in the ass to use all the time but for critical listening I put on my Sennheiser HD600's. Best I can afford but they are not influenced by room as most all speakers are. What I like about speakers is good soundstage and dynamics and to hell with accuracy. Back in the day when I went to live concerts I was disappointed in the live performances because they lacked the subleties of studio recordings--not always but sometimes not to mention the wall of sound at about the threshold of pain. My ears were never the same after a Santana concert and I can't even imagine wanting to see AC-DC live. |
If the problem is with timing accuracy, you may want to try out some DSP solutions that address timing as a function of frequency reproduction. Devialet's Speaker Active Matching (SAM) does that. So does Dirac Live Room Correction Suite (which covers the entire chain, including the room). Of course the room should be acoustically friendly. Some people do not like the result, but on balance I've found that people are extremely pleased when they first hear the improvements possible. You may also find the Stereophile step response measurements helpful. You can compare the Kef Blade Two to B&W, Revel, Vivid, etc. |
for example multiple sets of speakers aka resonators, Linn knew this back in the 80sThis myth was debunked back in the 80s with Ivor as the listener: "The second test, also single-blind, used a Linn "Kan" loudspeaker as the undriven transducer. Again the female vocalist was used as source material. The loudspeaker lay on the thickly-carpeted floor behind the listening couch. It was placed either on its side (the "uncovered" condition) or on its face (the "covered" condition) according to a random series of choices. Ten trials were conducted during which Tiefenbrun achieved a score of 5 correct out of 10. Again, this demonstrates no discrimination ability beyond what one would expect purely on the basis of chance." from https://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm @kenjit What you are hearing is phase error. Vertical baffle speakers are the worst offenders. Since you are particularly sensitive, look at speakers with minimum phase error. Vandersteen and Wilson are a two that attend to this very real defect. Most manufacturers ignore the issue. Most dealers, reviewers and the overwhelmingly vast majority of 'audiophiles' have no clue what you are talking about. They have also never heard what is on the recording! It's not the frequency. It's the Time! BTW, are you a musician? |
You have a couple of choices and all are time and phase coherent designs. This is the key as why you like that sound. Meadowlark - preowned. Thiel - preowned only these days unless Tom Thiel (please!!!) can find a way to restart the REAL Thiel. Vandersteen - NEW or preowned. (recommended even though I am a big Thiel fan) Dunlavy - preowned. Wilson DOES NOT DO THAT but instead inverts the polarity of the mid drivers so as to minimize the phase distortion caused by high order crossovers. From Stereophile for the Sophia: "The initial up/down spike is the tweeter output; the negative-going decay of the tweeter's step blends smoothly into the midrange unit's step response, the positive-going decay of which blends smoothly into the start of the woofer's step response. (The tweeter and woofer are connected in positive acoustic polarity, the midrange unit in inverted polarity.)" Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-sophia-series-3-loudspeaker-measurements#eASZCHpoiE... And it's not just this model but other Wilson models too. Based on you description of what you like about headphones and your disppointment with the speakers you’ve listened to, these are your choices. |
I agree that you need to cast your net wider. These mainstream "supposedly some of the best" speakers don't always turn out to be that. Speakers vary A LOT. You've heard one you like; there are hundreds of brands out there, and I'd bet there are 4 or 5 out that you would like as much as, or more than, the KEF. |
