Forgive the ignorant question here if a)it has recently been asked/answered on any of the 'audio enthusiast' websites,b)the answer is so obvious that anyone with a modicum of intellect should know the answer congenitally,or c)there is no scientifically measureable answer.I am a longtime music/audio enthusiast,but a recent 'returnee' to the hobby.So here goes,what are the qualifications for status as an 'audiophile' and where does one earn the degree or certificate which signifies the accomplishment?Thanks in advance for the 'serious' answers.All you gagsters,BM! |
Audioari1,you stated that the 'clever little clock' is the 'by far most disturbing audio accessory.....'I think that the 'brilliant pebbles',the Cardas wood blocks(forgot the official name)are no less disturbing,and I am truly mystified as to why anyone with at least a modicum of intelligence would actually buy any of these items.I am also mystified as to how any company that manufactures/sells other 'serious' products could even consider selling such things as the aforementioned 'products'. |
Wellfed: You (and you alone) are welcome to email me if you'd care to have a friendly and open discussion about why I say the CLC is a fraud (contrasted with, if you like, why I don't believe power cords necessarily are, though I won't always defend their price/performance ratio or even the science supposedly behind them in many cases). I didn't use the word "fraud" with the intent to upset anyone, it was just a statement of fact as I see it. (In case you're wondering about my esteem for the manufacturer's sensitivities in this matter, since he knows exactly what he's doing, he therefore won't find it upsetting that I or anybody else should state it plainly, and indeed he's savvy enough to have remained silent on that point, so I wouldn't worry about him. If there's one thing he knows, it's how his bread is buttered -- including by this thread.) My aim would not be to persuade you that you are wrong, or "a sucker" (we're all suckers for something, and besides this entire hobby is largely based around spending silly money to legitimately questionable ends), but only to let you know my reasoning if you're interested, which I feel is sound (though you of course may disagree). Obviously it goes without saying that I haven't "heard" the CLC, but that's probably beside the point, because I doubt that you, as a true believer, would think that I, as an avowed nonbeliever, would be likely to hear a difference if I did "audition" it, or that you would draw any different conclusion about the product if I didn't hear one, and I suspect that's something we can both agree on. So, any discussion/debate with me on this topic would be held on a theoretical and logical plane, not an experiential one. If you don't want to have this talk with me (and I don't particularly fancy having it myself, I'm just willing to), that's fine too, simply don't email me, but I won't have it on this thread. The reason that I'm posting this invitation on the thread, rather than emailing it to you directly, is because you continue to publicly bring up my use of the word "fraud", and I want any readers who may question my having done so to know that A) my choice of language was deliberate and precise, and B) despite the tangent it sent you off on, there is zero legalistic implication to my having used it (as I can assure you the manufacturer well understands), it is simply my considered opinion. |
I think everyone may be being a little too hard on Elizabeth. While I cannot agree that the device is definitely "puffery", my inclination NOT to try the device, as I stated at length above, coincides with hers exactly. I don't think it's an unreasonable position at all.
In my opinion, Audiogon would not be a very useful website if everyone agreed on everything. Skepticism is a a good thing at times. Let's all chill a little bit.
-Bill |
Elizabeth, I agree with you the CLC is hype but then again so is power cables and speaker wire. If they make an improvement one must have super ears to notice. My money is spent on epuipment upgrades such as better caps, power supply, resisters, diodes, etc. etc. where a audible difference can be heard. Audioair1 Your challenge if you loose will be dumb luck. |
Elizabeth, I am sure everyone trusts your bs meter. I do; to be b---s---. |
Elizabeth,
Egocentric bullshit detectors abound. Despite widespread problems with accuracy, they still tend to score quite high in consumer satisfaction polls. ;-) |
I wish Elizabeth had been here a couple of days ago when I incorporated a second Clock into the mix. I don't think anyone would have missed the improved sense of transparency, rich sonority, and soundstage depth that the second unit provided. A third unit is now on its way. |
I wish Elizabeth had been here a couple of days ago when I incorporated a second Clock into the mix. I don't think anyone would have missed the improved sense of transparency, the rich sonority, and soundstaging depth that the second unit provided. A third unit is on its way while I'm devouring everything I can read on P.W.B. technique. |
I am just saying what I believe.
Perhaps YOU need everyone to agree with you?
The idea of having to 'try' this device to 'find out for myself' is not worth bothering about.
Like saying you have to try Heroin to know whether to avoid it? Gee, maybe you WOULD like it? This is appealing to some.. Especially the drug dealer...
So no, I do not need to try this clock. My bull$hit meter is too sensible for that to happen.
The title of this thread is "High End Audio Insanity"
And I certainly vote for this little clock being just THAT! |
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Sherod...Based on my personal observations, the earth IS flat. |
Elizabeth is obviously in some need to be right. Reason need not be spent. |
Elizabeth,
Have you had a chance to actually audition the Clever Little Clock? If not, how can you be so certain that it doesn't do what the manufacturer claims? Until certain individuals sailed around the world, there were a majority of people who swore that the Earth was flat. |
Where shall I begin?
I PERSONAALY think this clever little clock is totally hype.
A rip off. It is for the weak minded and the rich who wish to play with other folks minds.
The value of this clock in my opinion is zero.
This clock is a travesty of marketing bull$hit.
Now, lets get to how I REALLY feel.
Cables make a slight difference. Even I have a few $100 powercords. I use Nordost Blue Heaven and Kimber Silver interconnects. I bought these used and averaged $120 to $200 for them. I HAD AQ Midnight speaker cables. and went to Kimber 8TC $200. new. (partially because I cound biwire them using a single wire of the eight to biwire the tweeters.
I would NEVER buy any cables over these sorts of prices, because Spending more is a waste of money, which is better spent on better equipment.
Wires from Home Depot are basically good enough for any system. I you want a bit better resolution etc then a low priced 'exotic' cable in the $80 to $100 range can do most of what anyone needs from a cable. And as I said, the improvements from big buck wires IS BETTER SPENT ON BETTER EQUIPMENT. Period.
This clock is a total sucker bet, Playing on the gullibility of nuerotic feebleminded audionuts, and the plaything of the wealthy, (who want to have all the crazy toys to show off their conspicuous consumption, and rattle the brains of visitors.
Clearly the folks who believe in this clock have need of something to (basically) hypnotize them into liking there system better. I say just sit in front of the mirror and tell your self over and over with feeling and belief "My system really sounds great" or something of that sort.
And it's free. |
Elizabeth, what does me posting about DK Design products have anything to do with any of this? |
Tgun5, I agree to all your conditions. Wellfed, I travel to Chicago quite often so lets schedule a time to meet there. Please email me directly at audioari1@yahoo.com to make arrangements and to schedule this listening session.
For this test, both of us should place money into an escrow account. You will put in $1,000 and I will put in $10,000 for each challenger.
Sherod, the powercords could be changed on all components. I don't care how you slice it or dice it, everyone fails the power cord test in a double-blind listening session.
All of my contentions here including this challenge are really my support for the Clever Little Clock. I believe that the Clever Little Clock upgrade is roughly equivalent or better then a good power cord upgrade.
It makes a very meaningful imporvement in sound quality but cannot be identified when tested scientifically, therefore, the improvement is completely imaginary.
It makes me sick here that people are mocking the CLC when they invest in other similar upgrades and consider them perfectly acceptable.
I am will be waiting for emails from Tgun & Wellfed. Any other challengers please go ahead and email me. Heck, I could make a living this way, challenging people to power cord tests and making $1000 each time!
By the way, I have done many such tests with friends and other audiophiles with very good systems, and none of them have ever been able to identify a change in power cords in a double-blind test. |
I am surprised that Wellfed has agreed to this. Who cares what others think?... Norm, I guess I'm simply a sucker for a good Challenge. Regarding concern over what others think, the line for me is charges of fraud without substantiation. Picture a Geico caveman as I say, "That is NOT cool!" |
Audioari1,
Chicago is roughly equidistant to each of us. |
Eldartford,
I enjoyed the short ditty
But find it a pity
That poets take such license with facts
I do suspect that Bose would rock with a couple Clever Little Clocks in the room now that you mention it. |
Wow! Very interesting thread. What started out as a thread regarding the Cute Lil' Clock turned into a power cord contest. I haven't tried the clock, but I just might someday. With a money-back guarantee, there's nothing much to lose but a bit of shipping and the time for experimenting. If I didn't live way out in the boonies of Texas, I'd jump on the power cord challenge in a heartbeat. I'm curious where the cord will be placed,amp,preamp,CD player,etc.? I would agree about having no line conditioners, etc. in the system. Hopefully the system will have a dedicated line for power. I would have to give the odds to Wellfed on this bet. I eagerly look forward to this modern-day Gunfight at O.K. Corral. Looks like a clash between Wyatt Earp(Wellfed) and the Clayton brother(Audioari1) |
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Elizabeth, let me ask you question, did you purchase audiophile speaker cables or are you using lamp cord wire from Home Depot? Now how is this any different then using POTATOES in your listening room? You have invested into the same "puffery" as the people who bought the clock. You are being a complete hypocrite. |
Gentlemen and Ladies - Its a clock it keeps time no voodoo involved. |
Sorry for the delay. I will do the challenge. I'm glad that puremusic brought some issues forward that I was going to request. The only other requirements that I have are:
1) I will bring two power cords that will be used on the CD player and preamp.
2) They will be changed at the same time (when changed) between stock cords.
3) No power conditioning or surge suppressors will be used.
4) I will be bringing someone to watch the test.
The only other issue is that I am on the road and my schedule is set. I will be traveling to the New Jersey area next month and would be willing to meet at an audio store in the state. I prefer not to go into the NYC area. |
Eldartford, good one! LMAO! |
Elizabeth, as I said, if you don't want to try it fine. I have not either. How do you know if it is "puffery?" We will leave it to you to try potatoes, paint cans, and engines. No that won't work, you won't try anything; right? |
So, Audioari does not like my sarcastic responses?
Lets see... what does Audioaril post:
Every post concerns either buying DK or praising DK stuff.
Sounds like a DK dealer, or owner to me.
So maybe he just doen't like sarcasm? Maybe he doesn;t like POTATOES? don't know.
If this thread had any merit, I wouldn't be trashing it, would I.
The only interesting thing about this thread is that folks are gullible enough to fork out $200. for NOTHING but "PUFFERY".
And that someone wants to accept a challenge to compare powercords.
As far as clocks go.. Who cares. Anyone who wants to try the clock out SHOULD try potatoes and paint cans and automobile engines in their listening room.
And the best thing they should try is hypnotizing themselves into whatever they want to believe can happen... without having to spend money on it. |
I am surprised that Wellfed has agreed to this. Who cares what others think? If he hears a benefit, he should enjoy. If they don't, they should not buy the clock. |
I am surprised that other then Wellfed, no one else is agreeing to the challenge. And where is Mdhoover with his listening team? Let's compare a good power cord with a bag of pens from Staples! |
Wellfed,
I think that it has to be a neutral environment where the observer of the test has no interest in the outcome either way. Your home would not be this kind of neutral environment.
I suggest that the test should take place at any high end audio showroom, where you should spend as much time as necessary familiarizing yourself with the system and playing your favorite CDs. When you announce that you are ready is when the test will begin.
Is the New York Tristate Area convenient for you? |
Elizabeth, I think your comments are completely tasteless. |
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.
An audiophile named Wellfed
Is trying to get in my head
He says that this clock
Makes a Bose really rock
But I think I'l do cryo instead
. |
Wellfed, you have put up a good fight, but why do you bother. You have only yourself to convince. The pseudo scientists do not deserve any effort to convince. Fortunately, I just discovered this thread and unfortunately at CES there was no with and without demonstration to hear for myself. |
Wellfed, please let us all know if this testing actually takes place...I would be very interested to know the result.
As for this tweeking buisness, why don't you all go get a radio updated atomic clock, that way you can have near perfect representation of time in your environment...That is what I did. |
Audioari1, I've committed as firmly as possible until you supply some additional answers.
Again I ask,
Who will administer the testing? How does geography play into your thinking? IOW, can this testing take place in my home? If not, what do you have in mind for the geographical location fo the DBT? |
Puremusic, I completely agree, The person accepting the challange should familiarize themselves with the system and use their favorite CDs.
I am confident that everyone will fail this test. Again, I suggest that people try this at home first before accepting this challenge.
So far, no one has given me a firm commitment. |
Qdrone - Actually, the Tice clocks did not employ cryogenics, but another "proprietary process." Below is (part of) Tice's statement in letter to Stereophile a while back (1991):
"Regarding your comments on extra circuitry, no extra circuits have been added to the Clock. The Clock is only a carrier of the TPT technology. I realize this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp: the Clock has been treated with the TPT process. This is very much the same idea as cryogenically treating components. Those components are not visually modified or altered, but the treatment changes them on a molecular level. The same is true for our TPT process. As to the Audio Advisor mentioning that an additional chip was added to our TPT Clock, this is incorrect." |
Error! Error My butterfly is in the south polar ocean wayyyy below Nepal.
On a boat of course! |
I have an Omega seamaster, somehow, when I don't wear it while listening to my system, the system doesn't sound right. But when I where my 1000.00 watch and put on a cd, my system truly blooms. It's funny, I borrowed my friends Rolex, it doesn't keep as a good time as the Omega, and I could not hear an audible difference in my system. Later, I found out his watch was a fake -- No wonder... When I borrowed a real rolex, strapped it to my wrist, my system ruled!!!
I truly can tell the difference in my system, especially when I wear my omega vs. the 25.00 casio I used to own. Man, that Casio sucks, a big waste of time, especially for 2 channel. But because it has a stop watch, can measure my pulse and translate Arabic, it's excellent for home theatre.
Moral is, can't wait to buy a Piaget watch, the sonic upgrade will be tremendous. Plus, the wife factor -- she digs Piaget's... |
WOW Leedistad, you live in a boat off the coast of Chile?
Opposite point on Earth from Irkutsk hey.
MY butterfly is somewhere around India/Nepal.
Cool |
Lately I've been experimenting with a new tweak. An accomplice who lives in Irkutsk, Russia, the exact opposite side of the earth from me keeps a butterfly in a cage. While listening to my rig, I send him a signal via MSNMessenger, he releases the butterfly, who flaps her wings. The resulting quantum resonances have a demonstrable impact on the presence, tonality, colour, and even the assonance of the system. |
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I own TWO Tice power clocks and still use them both. IMS I hear a difference and when they have gone out and have had to be recharged they did the same thing when sent back. The clock's were cryogenicly treated as the treatment wears off over time. Thats why when i see that a product is cryoed I don't get excited because eventualy the benefit weaRS off. I have owned up to owning these before on this board,it's no big secret but the premise behind the clocks was that they made the electrons in your electrical current go in one direction as opposed to random thus eliminating the noise floor in your electrical power. All I know is that they widened my soundstage and the benefit is better if you plug it into your pre. Today with power chords,and AC cleaners and filters doing the similar thing this was a product ahead of it's time. I trust my ears... my eyes well that's another story. |
Audioari1,
Your parameters work for me, if this can be done in my own home, count me in at once. If not, I have some research to do. How does geography play into your thinking? |
Serves us audiophiles right! We are suckers for any tweaks that would take us to that next higher step to audio nirvana. I don't blame machinadynamicawhatever folks at all!
One thing I know for sure: I would try that old $1.20 trick first, before forking up big bucks:-) |
Audioaril,
Two important conditions are missing in your list. The challenger should be allowed to familiarize himself/herself with the sound of the dealer's high-end system prior to the start of the 10 trials. He/she needs to sort out what sonic characteristics are due to the unfamiliar room and equipment; and which are due to his/her own cable. Also, the challenger should have the right to choose which track on his/her CD is to be used in the test. Presumably, a track that has a variety of sonic parameters will offer a greater opportunity for the two wires to be differentiated. John |
Tgun5,
Here are the simple conditions of the test:
1. We choose a high-end audio system of proper calibre. The test could be done at any high-end audio showroom with high end equipment. (Don't worry, Radio Shack receivers don't have a detachable power cord).
2. You will then be blind-folded. You can use your own CDs for this test.
3. You will listen to the same track 10 times. Each of the times you listen to it a power cord switch will be made or not made by a neutral observer.
4. The neutral observer will mark which power cord was used each time.
5. You will also mark which power cord you believe was used each time.
6. We will then compare your notes with the notes of the neutral observer. If you are correct 80% of the time (8 out of 10 times) then I will pay you $10,000. If not, you will pay me $1,000.
This test will even allow for a 20% margin of error. So if you can really hear the difference between power cords, there is no way for you to loose.
So, are you ready to take me up on my challenge? |
Audioari1, I would have to know what you have in mind for protocol, conditions, and required number of iterations before committing fully to your Challenge. Assuming those items prove acceptable to both parties, I'm all for it. My most problematic stipulation would be that the test occur within my own system. Who would administer this DBT? Please contact me privately to work out the details. |
Valinar...
Remember the fencer, named Fisk?
Whose fencing was incredibly brisk
So rapid his action
Fitzgerald's contraction
Converted his rapier to a disk.
. |
I already said I was willing to take the challenge. I'm confident of a difference in my power cord choice over a stock cord and the ability to choose it in my system or a system of its calibre. Since you have no system listed, I would want to know that I am not taking this challenge on a Radio Shack receiver driving Bose 901's. (no flames please) I would also like to know who will be the uninterested party that would hold the money and conduct the test. You already changed the rules from "I'll give anyone $10,000" to "it should cost you $1000 if you lose."
Post the rules, system, and test, so that a educated decision can be made.
Tom Roberts |
So I take it that no one will accept my challenge? |
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