Directionality of wire

Mr. Kait has 1194 positive feedback v. 2 neutrals from the same person several years ago and 0 negatives.  Many seem to include Machina Dynamica items.

Just throwing that out there.

Hodor!

I know some folks will say it's apples to oranges, but, insofar as there may or may not be any appreciable difference in the flow in plain wire, one way to the other, is anyone aware of any similar concern or use in other applications?  Thinking wire in high-falutin' sensitive computer equipment, medical equipment, military applications, etc. where lives, potentially global economy, or possibly even human survival as curse on the planet are on the lines.

Geoff--how about audible directionality in glass optical "cable?"

Geoff--I asked the question of anyone who may be aware--of course, if inherent directionality was noted in other applications, it might support the directionality camp.  Their research and usage could have some transferable context.

If not, I would think that the absence of it in other applications where stakes are infinitely higher and arguably more sensitive than our measly listening devices would support the non-directionality camp.

Then, of course, perhaps one could argue that it's apples to oranges and that there is something inherently electrically different and unique about audio from everything else.  Couldn't definitively argue against that.  I have a difficult time believing "we" are that unique, though.

I didn't take Almarg's response as anything other than experiential and anecdotal, which he qualified, FWIW.  You may know him well enough to read between lines.  I dunno.

Anyway, I have not been able to detect any difference from flipping cables around, but I, of course, have stone ears, crappy gear, and am too dumb to even understand how MQA is supposed to work.  And I use comparatively inexpensive (so, probably crappy) cables--mostly stranded copper speaker, rca, and xlr.  A couple of rcas with a touch of silver.  Silver plated solid copper for digital, because I got a deal on them.  Might directionality only apply to premium cabling?

I’m a skeptic. I’m too dumb to make sense of it, and I haven’t personally been able to "hear" directionality. Even if I could, I’d probably take the next step to question whether it was actually an inherent directionality of the actual wire I was "hearing" as opposed to something else like a connection being better or worse after fiddling with it or of any of another million factors that could affect perception within the few minutes.

I can even get on board with the concept of the structure of the metal looking different in one direction than the other--whether from extrusion, rolling, forging, casting or whatever method one might choose. Seems like it should be electrically insignificant.

I’d love to be able to "improve" my listening experience with something as simple as flipping a wire or a fuse but haven’t heard such a thing.

But, I used to be a skeptic of how much a impact a rectifier tube could make...until I "heard" it.


C’mon man, no one ever actually walked on the moon.

--Only those things one finds for himself to be true are true--

10/6

Well, of course wire directionality wouldn’t show up anywhere except among audiophiles because wire directionality is really defined as the reason wires, cables and fuses SOUND better in one direction than the other. SOUND better in the artistic or sensual or subjective sense.
...
It’s not rocket science. You can establish correct direction of the tiny wire, or any wire, by measuring resistance of a length of wire....

If "SOUND" was a characteristic of a wire, inherently different depending on which direction the signals are flowing, that had zero effect on any other use for a wire, perhaps.  But, if that characteristic that affects "SOUND" could be reliably measured with a material difference in resistance, one would think someone outside of audio, and likely smarter than most of us, might care enough to at least have considered whether that difference matters even a tiny bit when billions of lives or, more importantly to many, trillions of dollars could be at stake.  Subjective sound, in a non-sound application, might not matter, but an objective difference in resistance probably would.

I have no idea whether anyone does or not, which is why I asked the prior question about directionality outside of the hobby.  Does the super-smart person or robot designing and/or assembling some super-sensitive component, critical to something more important than our super-cool stereos measure each wire each way to determine which way it should installed?  In so doing, actually considering directionality, even if it might not be called "directionality" outside of the hobby.

Geoff--one of the other problems, here, is that, for a lot of these things, some folks do try them, including flipping cables, and don't find a difference.  they seem to often be immediately met with derision.

--you can't hear it, because you have ears of aluminum foil and candlewax.

--you can't hear it, because your gear and room are too crappy to pick up the details.

--you can't hear it, because you're doing it incorrectly.

--you can't hear it, because you're a skeptic and are biased.

--you can't hear it, because you obviously live on the edges of some quantum vortex that is affecting the tweak.

--oh, this stuff is real, every time, but it doesn't work for everyone.


Too funny, all this.  I guess I didn't quite realize this "debate" has been going on probably since my audio journey included a Scott integrated, some lit up equalizer, and, for my truck, a couple or more monster subwoofers and pissed off neighbors.

Geoff--Perhaps this has been adequately and succinctly discussed elsewhere, but, assuming all cables are inherently directional with sound differences from one way to the other, what might be some reasons someone, with a good trained ear with a highly resolving setup and with no skin in the game, wouldn’t be able to hear a difference?

--I'm not trying to bait you.  I may be a skeptic, but I'm genuinely interested.

Geoff--hasn't a lot of this discussion, from both "sides," illustrated the lack of predictability, particularly with so many variables--some difficult or arguably impossible to control for?

"With so many variables involved, you can see why I say, in the context of so many positive results, it’s probably best to just throw out the negative results. They are outliers."

One might argue just the opposite, as well.


It seems that many of the skeptics won't be convinced without scientific proof.  If that proof materialized, I suspect many would "believe."  Some, may still deny, find fault with the method, or raise the bar.  For the "pro" directionality folks, what would it take to convince them that there isn't actually anything to it?

Geoff--I can't say I follow your logic (at the very least it requires making a lot of assumptions), but I am certainly going to get some lambchops for the grill this weekend.  My pups thank you.

"Remember most skeptics never get down to brass tacks and try aftermarket fuses or ever try reversing cables. They would rather fight than switch. 😀
Fair enough?"  I don't know whether that's true.  Perhaps there are some that wouldn't be convinced (or would refuse to be wrong) even if there was a proper study.

But, you didn't address the question.  What would it take to convince a "believer" that it was all in the imagination, expectation, or another variable--such as having unwittingly sneezed in between the switch or the neighbor turning off the hairdryer.  Are the believers trying the fuses or wire switching at multiple times, trying to verify that the perceived result wasn't due to one of the variables and trying to make sure the result is repeatable?  As much as a skeptic might not even try it, might some believers not make the effort before advocating?

Al--Thanks.  I read some portions of the fuse thread, but, to be frank, I couldn't make it all the way through.

Geoff--You have a dizzying intellect.

"Positive results are not due to any of the variables, they are obtained in SPITE of them. See the difference?"

--I don't.  It's a circular (or backwards) proposition that presumes the truth of the cause and of the result.

"Assume for a moment that directionality is real. Then the few audiophiles who get negative results MUST do so because of some error or hearing issue or one or more of the other reasons I’ve already listed."

--Sort of.

"By the way, when can we expect your test and test results?"

--I offer no such thing to anyone.  I'm a curious simpleton and can only offer that I've tried reversing nearly all of my reversible wiring and cabling in five different setups (more, if variations after swapping gear count) and could discern no audible difference.


Assume God exists, in the ultimate "appeal to authority," and God told the directionality folks, "It's all a lie, there is no such thing as an inherent audible directionality in cabling.  It was written by the devil's left hand. I should know."  Then, God also told the skeptical folks, "Yes, indeed.  All cabling carries within it the glory of an audible improvement in one direction v. the other.  I should know."

Who would be more likely to believe God's word? 

Geoff--Sorry if the Princess Bride quote was over the top.  Let me know when you are done editing.

My stone ears and crappy system appreciate the sentiment, but it is unnecessary, as gratuitous as it is.  Already conceded, for various reasons, that my personal inability to have discerned a sonic improvement by flipping cables proves nothing and only serves as one support of personal skepticism.  Others claim they have.  For those with no skin in the game, I have no reason to doubt they believe it or have actually realized a benefit.  The skepticism is on the notion that all cables are inherently and audibly directional.  That some folks hear a change by flipping cables, doesn't prove inherent directionality, and it certainly doesn't disprove that there could be myriad other causes for the perception. 

You tried to take a swipe to demand my test and test results.  I laid bare that, of course, I have no such thing and would be unqualified for such an endeavor, in any event.

Little would please me more in the hobby than to obtain a sonic benefit, even a slight one, and definitely to the extent some have claimed to have realized (on par with upgrading speakers and amps), by something free and as quick as redirecting wire.

My "God" question was somewhat rhetorical--simply to illustrate that it seems some folks on both "sides" of this are so married to their respective positions that nothing, even God (should one assume he exists, is trustworthy, and is indeed all-knowing), might convince them otherwise.  The non-rhetorical intent is just a question about who is more stubborn.  I think I gave you more credit than due by actually re-reading it after you somehow perceived it as "the ultimate naysayer" argument.  There is nothing "naysayer" about it, and it's actually quite neutral.

I don't follow your logic, and it seems you don't follow mine, unless you are being purposefully obtuse.  Which one of us is Vizzini, Westley, or even Vezzik?  Hell, I don't know.

And, dude, what is your fascination with sheep?

"Herman stated recently regarding wire directionality, "if you can hear it it’s real." I hate to be the one to point this out but that’s unfortunately not really the right answer, at for the purposes of this thread, since the naysayers or skeptics whatever never try listening for directionality - or if they do they can’t hear it. So they say."

---Hey, Geoff.  I guess I'm going to take you up on your offer to unload 'angst and disappointment.'  Perceive it as you wish.  I have no reason or basis to doubt that some folks (folks with no skin in the game) when they say they hear or perceive a difference when they flip cables.  It is a giant leap from there, even if there are many folks who "hear" it, to make an unqualified claim that that proves all cables are inherently and audibly directional to the exclusion of all other possibilities.


"Wouldn't it be nice if there was an electronics textbook or a technical paper in some scientific journal that came right out and demonstrated how wire can or cannot be directional? But then all this discourse would stop."

--Did you actually just answer my previous question about what might convince pro-directionality folks that there was nothing to it?

I don't believe it would stop.  Not at all.  It would just provide something else to bicker about.  While I think it would convince some or even many skeptics or "naysayers," I don't think it would convince many pro-directionality folks.  I suspect fault would claim to be found in the methodology and/or conclusion or it would be labeled another "appeal to authority" (to which you have inexplicably developed an immunity).

I suspect most of the folks, here, are 40+.  This "debate" probably won't die until the "audiophiles" die off and become extinct.

I don't think I quite said that folks hear "directionality" in the sense you've described it.  I did say a difference after "flipping cables."  And implied that I'd have no basis to essentially call them crazy or liars.  There's difference.

Folks can hear what they hear.  Much as folks can taste what they taste.

But, you kind of seem to hear what you want to hear and read what you want to read, and I think you may be a tad nuts.  I like you.

Geofff--When we finally destroy the planet, you will survive to argue fuses and directionality with cockroaches.

Geoff--You lost me with that one, but I’m a simpleton who only learned of the existence of "network bridges" and home "mesh networks," today. If you are trying to pick a religious fight, I’m not your guy, but that would be a ballsy move.

@nonoise.  Too funny.  I was actually trying to give Geoff a compliment on his resiliency, and, then, things got weird.

@geoffkait .  I don't know, but they are apparently directional, too.

Geoff--I think you are misapplying the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy, here.  However, you seem correct on at least the appearance of the backfire effect, on both "sides."

@geoffkait 

And since ALL fuses are directional we can probably conclude it’s the wire itself, not (rpt not) the dielectric material, at least not (rpt not) to any significant degree. This whole wire directionality thing is actually an excellent example of Occam’s razor: Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In the case of two possibile explanations the simpler one is usually the correct or better one. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is.

I think you may be misusing the razor.