I received my Elrog replacement tubes and I'm listening to them now. It's funny how much I enjoyed the EML XLS while waiting for the Elrogs. The Elrogs raise the holistic/presence factor from the EML's already high standard. Both are wonderfully dynamic and energetic with lively involvement. The Elrogs are more fluid, organic and provide just a bit more sense of 3 dimensional space, you are there factor. Beautiful natural tone!
As I've said before, it's a move from excellent to the sublime. Time and use will determine reliability and longevity merit. It nails the sound quality portion. George of tubesusa.com has been simply terrific during this period wih his service and support. Thank You.
Charles, |
Hi Bill, well again you make a good point regarding the cost of the 300b tube.look at it this way, those tubes can easily last up to 10,000 hours some say even more. That equals many years of sheer musical enjoyment and appreciation.The Frankenstein amplifier is a very easy circuit on the 300 B output tube per Israel Blume. When you consider how much money can be spent on various components and yet people are left dissatisfied and frustrated, the premium 300b in a good amplifier is worth it given what it delivers. Bill, you mention the mid range and that's true but honestly the 300b in a good amp will just as we both know provide an extraordinary natural sound. What price can be placed on that rare accomplishment. |
Bill,
Take the cost of the Elrog and your Frankenstein amp.' With that sum what
could you purchase that will better what you are hearing now? We are not
crazy. You can spend much more and have a far more mechanical or
electronic character. Bill your money was Very wisely
spent😄😄
Charles, |
Bill,
I like the Bach example. Quality of life is important and knowing what makes you happy is the foundation. I haven't a single regret for the purchase of anything in my audio system. The joy I experience listening to music is deep and fulfilling, I feel fortunate.
Charles, |
Hi Pani,
I thought you sold your Wavac EC 300b amp because you sought more power for your Tannoys. I recall that you did enjoy that amplifier.
Charles, |
Swampwalker,
True Audiophile.com 1099.00 USD per pair. |
Randy, I will have the chance to hear a pair of the Elrogs in about one or two weeks. One thing I have come to learn is the preference for a particular tube is dependent somewhat on the amplifier and it's circuit. For example I know people who have compared EML with Takatsuki and prefer the TAK. My amp just really sounds Terrific with the EML, maybe more so than other amplifiers would. The Elrog is according to Bill/Brownsfan a supreme match with Frankenstein and I don't doubt his impressions by any means. It should be an enjoyable comparison of these three premium 300bs. |
The Elrog will be the 11th 300b that I will hear in my amplifier. I can tell you that each of the previous 10 tubes sonic character was easily sorted out with the Frankenstein. Bill and I have the same amplifier and line stage, so his positive endorsement I put much trust in(I also completely respect his ears and taste). Jeff hearing your system with these Elrogs motivated my interest to seek them out. It funny because I am already full of joy with my current stash of 300bs with the Frankenstein. I realize I have nothing to lose and potentially something to gain. |
Swampwalker,
I have read good things about that amplifier, what speaker are you using with them? |
Oh I see you have the Merlins. How is the LD SET compared to your Wavac MD 300b? |
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Hi Joe(Snopro,
I am very happy that worked out so well for you. I know just because I love the SET experience doesn't mean they'll please everyone else.
Charles, |
Swampwalker,
Nice! Those Feastrex field coils must sound heavenly with your Lady Bird SET amplifier. |
Pani,
Your Wavac EC 300b is held in the highest regard. I recall you got a FM Acoustics amplifier to drive your Tannoys. Needless to say, those two amplifiers are very different. I imagine you enjoy both of them.
Charles, |
Pani,
Your reply is interesting. I thought when you got the FM Acoustics amplifier it was the solution for increased power needs you desired. Long term listening will eventually sort things out. I recall you were very happy with the FM Acoustics initially.
Charles, |
Pani,
I get your analogy, for what ever reason it differs for me. I can move easily between good digital and analog systems. The gap you describe isn't there for me in that comparison. There is however a sonic gap I experience with SET vs many non SET amplifiers. The emotional connection and naturalness/realism is glaringly obvious for me. It just demonstrates once again our unique individual bias and needs. Anyway I am glad you kept your wonderful Wavac as you wisely trusted your ears.
Charles, |
Jeff,
Yes it has unfolded that way for me. I'd choose digital source with tube electronics rather than analog source with solid state electronics in a forced to choose hypothetical situation. Obviously some would prefer the analog and SS option. |
Pani,
We are all different , my digital/analog comparison was strictly a personal
observation and nothing more. I certainly respect that you have had a
different experience and that's to be expected as we are all individuals with
our own taste and preferences. I am sure there are a number of listeners
who would share your point of view in that there is more of a gap between
digital and analog than I appreciate, that's just the way it goes. I am curious
to see how your Naim amplifier experience vs your Wavac turns out. It
should be fun.
Charles, |
If I were to venture into SS amps a First Watt type would interest me(simple class A circuit/few parts).You're exchanging a particular tube signature for a transistor signature. Any and all audio components/devices have a signature. Some people say get rid of the output transformer, okay fine. An OTL will present its signature as well, different, but still a signature. It's just a matter of what flavor or character you want and are attracted to. The SET flavor is delicious and suits my particular taste buds.
Charles, |
Pani,
Those 2 amplifiers are worth considering if you're seeking higher power while attempting to maintain the SQ of your Wavac EC 300b. The Ayon Crossfire is a pure DHT tube design. The Audiopax 88 isn't a true SET(if that matters at all to you). It is a very innovative pentode tube(KT 88) that uses these tubes in parallel wired for triode mode.It is a more complicated design than the simpler straight forward Crossfire SET. Both are said to produce excellent sound despite their very different circuits. Both are certainly more powerful(output power rating) than your 300b amp. Will they sound better than your Wavac EC? Only listening will provide the answer. It is logical to assume they'll provide more drive for your Tannoys. I would think either of these may be closer to what you seek compared to the FM Acoustic SS amplifier you tried. |
Hi Gary,
I know Srajan Ebaen(6 Moons) prefers the First Watt S.I.T. over any 300b SET he's heard. 213 Cobra and some other gon members tried the S.I.T. but ultimately preferred their own amplifiers(they did think highly of that amp however). Gary, where did the S.I.T fall short compared to your Ancient Audio amplifier? I've been curious to hear it myself. |
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Pani,
There's an audiogon member who recently replaced his Pass Labs INT-30A(XA30.5 with preamp function added) with the Coincident Frankenstein 300b SET,what does this suggest? Nothing other than people are moving/changing directions with audio components all the time for a variety of reasons. One person likes amp A better than amp B. Another person prefers amp B to amp A, happens constantly. You should audition the Pass Lab amp with your Tannoys, they are certainly highly praised amplifiers. Who knows, it could be just what you're looking for.
Charles, |
Pani,
Here's an interesting option to consider, the Coincident Turbo 845. It was given a rave review on 6 Moons(and other sites as well) recently and has roughly the same power(28 watts) as the others amps you've mentioned recently. 845 output tube with 300b as the driver tube. Imagine this amp using Elrog 845 and their 300b, could be 'very special' for a very reasonable cost. Just another idea to for more SET power for those Tannoys.
Charles, |
Pani,
If you are able to hear this Pass amp, post your listening impression. |
When I listen to very dynamic big band jazz the EML XLS really deliver the scale, power and size of the band in all of its glory. It really uncovers the full weight and textures of instruments individually and also as a full ensemble. Yet it does justice to smaller scala music as well. I can't wait to get the Elrog tubes and compare them to the EML.
Charles, |
I bought my EML from TubesUSA.com and the customer service is top notch. I am buying my Elrogs from them also. |
The early reports on the Elrog 300b have been consistently high praise . I
like that Elrog didn't attempt to merely clone the W.E. But instead to better
it sonically and go further. I had the opportunity to hear the re-issue version
of the Western Electric 300b tube in my amplifier and frankly I was
disappointed. I certainly hope that the vintage Western electric 300b is
better, if not then there is much hype surrounding this tube. I honestly
believe however that some amplifiers are specifically voiced to mate with
the sound of the Western electric 300b. I don't believe my amplifier was
voice this way, it sounds so much better with a modern type 300b such as
the EML, just better across the board. Back in January of this year 6 moons
did a feature on the Elrog 300b and compared it to the Western electric,
their conclusion was the Western electric was softer and fuzzy and lacked
bass. Even though they were using an entirely different amplifier from mine,
those general characteristics of the W.E. in my amplifier came across the
same. Soft, less defined sounding and less articulate. It was simply
outclassed by both the Takatsuki and the EML XLS,they are more
transparent, clear and nuanced.
The irony is, I found both of these tubes in fact more musical and
emotionally involving than the Western Electric tube. My Elrogs are
scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, I look forward to hearing these tubes
in my amplifier. |
I'll post on my system page. |
Hi Bill,
My wife just told me that the tube package arrive today. I am out of town but will be back home tomorrow, I do look forward to hearing these unique tubes and comparing them to my other favorites. The Frankenstein has clearly and easily revealed the character of every single 300b I have tried thus far. In that 6 Moons review article I had referenced earlier they use the top-of-the-line Thomas Mayer SET amplifier. Yet their description of the sonic character of the Western Electric was identical to what I heard in my system.
Charles, |
Hi Rob,
Admittedly there are certainly other excellent options and choices in amplifiers besides a 300b SET amplifier. And within this 300b amplifier niche there are certainly other very fine choices besides the Coincident Frankenstein amplifier. I will say that this amp with the top level 300bs installed is definitely a musical Thrill to enjoy. I believe it would be terrific with your Tekton Lore speakers. A wonderful match of speaker and amplifier that doesn't cost excessive money.
Charles, |
Oops,
Rob I just remembered that you and your wife are going to be building and using the Audio Note Kit amplifier. Still, my point is the same, an excellent amplifier and speaker combination that should bring both of you much joy for many years. |
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I listened to my new Elrog 300b today and I'll get to the point, this is a new standard of excellence for me. It does not blow away, embarrass or cause jaws dropping to the floor compared to Takatsuki and the EML XLS. No hyperbole is necessary as I feel these two 300bs are true reference quality and have bettered every other 300b I've tried. In terms of bass and dynamic ability the Elrog equals but doesn't surpass either(at least at this early stage).
The strength of the TAK and EML are balanced sound top to bottom, realistic, honest tone and timbre of instruments and voice. Comparing these to each other, the TAK just a "bit" more organic and refined. EML a "bit" more robust with authority particularly with larger scale music, but overall both are top tier in my amplifier.Just below these two are the AVVT 32B SL, Sophia RP and the KR 300b XLS.
The Elrog moves ahead in providing superior resolution,clarity of the nuances and low level information. This is a feat because the TAK/EML excel in this area. Elrog takes it further and has more presence and 'feel' factor. The sense of living humans singing and playing real instruments is first rate. Again a compliment considering how high a standard the other two set in this regard.
The breath of life factor is higher with the Elrog, you just hear and are aware of the tactile presence of instrumental energy. The air in the room seems to vibrate and is charged with natural sound about you. The Elrog offers more tonal and color/harmonic saturation closer to what you'd experience in a live setting. This is for me very impressive given the stout competition and quality of the two other reference tubes.
For my fellow 300b amp brothers, the Elrog is an absolutely superb tube if the objective is natural sound and increased realism. It moves a small but definite step beyond my two references but is not a "night and day" difference. All three of them will provide wonderful sound and enhance music loving involvement. If I could only choose one, the Elrog leads this stellar trio. I wonder how much impact the particular amplifier has on tube preference. I can only speak for results with my Coincident Frankenstein SET amp.
Charles, |
I realize there's no mention of soundstage and imaging. If you have a good system set up all 3 of these tubes will only enrich those aspects. I tend to just focus on the characteristics that make or break it for me. If the tone/timbre isn't right or the sound is hifish rather than natural/organic, I lose all interest.
One more point concerning the Elrog, you get the "full note", not just the attack. The note substain,decay is all there, full saturation is presented. No artificial speed/transient attack and nothing else type sound. |
Bill,
How much improvement did you notice with your Elrogs as you accumulated more hours on them? They are so good with only a few hours(24 hour factory burn in). Bill, I can honestly say this tube in the Frankenstein is a stunningly good match. I am sure the same is true of other high quality 300b amplifiers as well. Given the pure satisfaction I have with the EML and Takatsuki(again better than everything else other than the Elrog) I wasn't sure of what to expect.
The Elrog has a lower amplifying factor and actually has a lower maximum power output than other 300bs, but it counters with 'higher current' delivery. Based on what I'm hearing, the current must be more significant than output power capability (at least in this case). The sound is "more" alive,vibrant, energetic and saturated not less. The music opens up, blooms, breaths and there's increased ambiance awareness and communication.
I don't know how much of what I am hearing has to do with thoriated tungsten filaments. I'll say this, they sure aren't hurting the sound. Based on my listening I can't imagine how any music lover wouldn't fall for this tube in a good SET amplifier. I'm still surprised the Elrog has more resolution/transparency than the superb Takatsuki, it was the king in this respect(with EML a close second). Once again, the 3 dimensional density and human presence factor is just special. Jazz drummers if well recorded have wonderful snap,impact and authenticity. These tubes absolutely increase the startle factor.
Charles, |
Thanks Fla, yes this is a wonderful tube in my system. I do however like to remind people that these impressions are based on my particular listening preferences in my amplifier and system. Certainly as with anything else there will be differences of opinion and ranking order.
Charles, |
If I were Israel Blume, I'd offer a Coincident Frankenstein Premium package. Elrog 300b and the Mullard GZ37 rectifier tube. It wouldn't be cheap nor ultra expensive either(within reach of a lot of people). With a proper efficient speaker it would keep many folks off the money draining High End merry go round. People could simply sit back and indulge in their music library with sheer joy.
Charles, |
Jeff,
Thanks for your comments and it was fun having you drop by my home today. Our systems are very different in terms of components and room acoustics, yet both reproduce music beautifully in their unique way. Both systems emphasize the natural sound approach.
Rob,
Yes I thought the AN Kit amplifier instead of the Frankenstein. Given your plans, you and your wife will have a home filled with wonderful sound in multiple rooms. Great plan!
Charles, |
Rob,
As you read above, Jeff heard my system today. He knows my system intimately and thought as highly of the Takatsuki and EML XLS as I do. My advice if you can swing it, get the Elrogs for your Frankenstein. Start at the top with this combination, there'll be no looking back or second guessing.
Charles, |
Rob,
That was a wise decision. That is the hard to find fat bottle version I believe. You're on the right path for sure. |
Cal3713,
The Mullard GZ37 is a simple plug in and play replacement rectifier tube. Cal, I tried to emphasize while conveying my Elrog description that the EML XLS and Takatsuki are still excellent choices. It's not as though I didn't enjoy listening until the Elrog came along(far from it). Believe me those two tubes will be an asset for any 300b amp owner. Please don't get the impression that a used EML wouldn't be an exceptionally good move.That's why I attempted to avoid hyperbole and risk going overboard with the comparisons/contrasts of these 3 top level tubes.
The Elrog does advance some attributes of the other two, Overall it is the best sounding of the 3 tubes by a modest but noticeable degree. that modest gap is worthy of recognition considering the stiff competition. The Takatsuki and EML were by no means "blown away". At some point you rank top tier items(all three tubes in this case)and the Elrog is my top choice.
Given a person's particular listening values and different system and or amplifier, someone else could possibly prefer a 300b other than the Elrog (even if that puts them in the minority). Cal, if your hearing/listening criteria are similar to mine you'll appreciate the 3 tubes under discussion but ultimately choose the Elrog.
Charles, |
Elrog update,
I guess I should have seen this coming, the good has gotten better. The sound continues to open up and has improved on what was described just a few days ago.
In essence here's what's evolving. The foundation, weight and body have improved(out of the box this was already exceptional). Yet at the same time resolution,musical subtleties,nuance, micro information are just fleshed out beautifully. The chemistry and interaction of the musicians becomes so apparent. Tonality and fully sorted out harmonic color and richness is simply excellent. The music flows fluidly with emotion and humanity. It's very difficult to end a listening session. I went well beyond my bedtime last night, couldn't help myself. These tubes are for pure music lovers as opposed to gearheads who are primarily into the components in and of themselves.
If all or most of what I'm hearing is due to thoriated tungsten filaments, why did it take so long for someone to try this material/construction in the 300b(that's been in production for 80 years)?
Anyone with a good quality 300b amplifier must seriously consider buying the Elrogs. These are genuinely special tubes. and will improve any system with their installment in my opinion.
Charles, |
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Philefreak,
I appreciate your comments and thank you. I sincerely believe your money will be wisely spent purchasing the Elrogs.
Wyan001, I haven't rolled that driver tube and I don't think there are many choices of them. If you do that please post your impressions.
Charles, |
Jet,
Thank you. It works both ways you know. I enjoy reading about your hands on experiences with your custom 300b SET. I look forward to the Sophia Electric and Audio Note output transformer comparison. There is much interesting information to be shared amongst all of us here.
Charles, |
Wyan001,
Gon member Snopro (Joe) uses the First Watt J2 and the Frankenstein MK II with his Zu speakers. |
Hi Calloway,
I 've been fortunate to hear many 300b s in my amplifier but the Pavane W.E. Replica wasn't one of them.I use their W.E. 101d in my line stage. I've heard their 845 often in my friend's(Jwm) Absolare Passion 845 amp. This is an excellent series of tubes from Pavane. It was the best 845 Jwm had used until he bought the Elrog 845(it's better we both agree). I'd expect that there's synergy using the same series of Pavane tubes. You're at a high level already with the Sophia Royal Princess 300b IMO. I wonder how much impact the 300b makes as a driver tube in your fabulous Chalice amplifier. I can't imagine you ever replacing that amplifier.
Charles, |
Calloway,
New interstage transformers? My goodness, how much better can that Chalice sound?
Charles, |
Wenye,
I don't know enough about your system so I can only speak in general terms. If you're seeking a more natural and less electronic sound quality, the Frankenstein is that direction. Get the best 300b tube your can comfortably afford, this amplifier will reward that effort. Perhaps the most obvious and pleasing characteristic I noticed when I got mine is the absence of electronic sound/artifact. Snopro's video pixel analogy is a good one.
Charles, |
Elrog update,
These tubes continue to impress me deeply in their ability to infuse the music with life and vibrancy as they accumulate playing hours. They really do bring my sound closer to what I hear in my local jazz venues. That unmistakable full, rich, fleshed out instrumental tone and body. Harmonic overtones are really revealed and the natural lingering and decay of notes is very lifelike. Vocalists just sound present and utterly living and breathing believable.There is exceptional dynamic energy, snap and excellent music pace and flow regardless of tempo. There's such a wonderful combination of liquidity with very high resolution(all articulate and clear, no syrup). I'm the jazz guy and Bill(Brownafan) is the classical musical afficioanado. Bill are you hearing these characteristics with your genre of music? These are very special tubes that are still improving! I'm around 70 hours (this includes the factory's 24 hours of burn in).
If generally speaking there are two broad camps in high end audio, natural/organic(usually tube) and accurate(usually transistor). I am a card carrying lifer in the natural camp. Thank you Dr. Schaffernitch for your Elrogs.
Charles, |
Hi Jet,
Elrog seems to favor/recommend DC rather than AC filament voltage for heating. They say that the thoriated tungsten filament due to its thermal properties are more subject to hum with AC heat. I'd get in touch with George(owner)at Tubes USA.com (just to be sure about that). He sells the Elrogs(sold me mine) but also builds very custom tube amplifiers. He's a straight shooter and very knowledgeable. I believe he's located in Long Island NY. I think you'd really these tubes.
Good Luck,
Charles, |
Hi Rob,
I've heard enough at this point to say with confidence the Elrog/Frankenstein pairing is marvelous. Truly an ideal combo to my ears. |
Calloway,
My original order was with True Audiophile but they had delays with shipment from Germany. I hope they have gotten things sorted out. I subsequently bought my pair from Tubes USA.com with no problems.
Charles, |
