Harbeth vs JM Reynaud

I owned the baby Spendor 3/5R's, and played them in a very small 11.5' square den. I had great success with them in that little room. I auditioned Harbeth P-3's in a dealers showroom, that was likely about the size of your room, perhaps a bit larger. I can't help with your specific question, but did you feel the 30.1's filled your room pretty well. The 3's certainly didn't at the dealers where I heard them. One more thought would be the JMR's are supposed to be more tube friendly, if that matters to you. I bet those 30.1's are wonderful.

There's no substitute for doing an in home demo. You tried the Harbeths in your system, and liked them enough to buy them. If you can't do the same with the JM Reynaud, I wouldn't even consider it. I don't care how good the reviews are, there's just too much that can go wrong.

What part of the country do you live in? I know a really good Harbeth dealer. His whole store is built around the "British" sound. That's his specialty. Harbeth, Spendor, Rega, Naim, Audio Note, Nottingham, and some others.

I have not had Spendors or Harbeths so I can't compate for you against my JM Reynaud Offrande Supreme 2s. I do find the JMRs to offer a very balanced and refined sound with good soundstaging. Purchased them w/o auditioning and never regreted the decision; not saying that you shouldn't but if you are in a situation like me with no audiophile retail stores anywhere near I wouldn't have the anxiety that some have. Original drove them with Ayon Spirit 2 tube integrated and now with Modwright LS100 pre and KWA100SE separates - both have matched well

If you had the Harbeth's at home and you fell in love with them,why would you look at anything else? BTW, I have owned many Harbeth and Spendor speakers and if your taste runs with that sound then you should look no further!

The 30.1's filled my room very nicely. I guess the reason I am interested in the JMRs is that there are the several reviews from folks that have Spendor and/or Harbeth preferences/tastes/leanings that favorably compare the JRMs. In the review here:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue48/jmreynaud.htm

The reviewer concludes:
["I am notably monogamous when it comes to loudspeakers: while I know plenty of audiophiles who "flip" their speakers with regularity, my relationship with the Spendor/Harbeth/BBC school lasted from the mid-'90s to 2009. But that relationship has finally been supplanted, and these two brilliant offerings from Reynaud are my new ideal of sound—the standard against which others are measured."]

I know each to their own in terms of the sound they like, but this seem like pretty high praise that at least begs some mental consideration of the JRM Offrande Supreme 2s over the 30.1.

I live in the Chicago area and the Harbeth dealer here is very good. In store auditions were done with Rogue preamp and Cary tube amps. Sounded very good.

Anyways, thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies.

I recommend you buy both and spend 3-6 months listening and comparing them, and then sell the ones you like least. Seriously. It will require the larger up front investment, which may seem radical, but if this really is your last set of speakers then you want to get it right. If you buy both, listen to each pair for a week at a time then switch off, back and forth, one of them will make itself obvious as your favorite and you sell the others. Sure, you'll take the resale loss, but if you buy either one by itself and it turns out to be the wrong choice you'd take that resale hit anyway.

Getting other peoples' opinions is valuable and helpful - I've been there myself - but in the end it won't get you to where you want to go.

I owned JMR Trentes and really loved them. I sold them and got Audio Note E silver (kit) for the more full range sound but always missed the Trentes magic midrange which was super revealing and musical.

Bob Neill is a JMR expert (IMO) he owns Amherst Audio

you may want to contact him

http://www.amherstaudio.com/

Have you heard an ATC ? I mean a good demo ?
IMO, everything else you have listed and many other speakers discussed in the audiophile community sound false and cooked after one listens to a good pair of ATC speakers. Check it out, there is no harm.

What's false in your mind about the speakers he has listed , Pani?

Facten, I meant sonically less true.

I thought the reason people buy Harbeth speakers is because they are warm and colored sounding. When I was looking for speakers about 4 years I auditioned the 7's, 5's and 30's. I decided on Dynaudio C-1's because they sounded more accurate to me and more dynamic.

Taters, you are spot on!
Harbeth being neutral is an oxymoron

I moved from dynaudio to ATC for further neutrality and even truer dynamic range.

I don't understand all the raves about Harbeth. I've auditioned the 30's myself at a Harbeth dealer and found the bass to be very heavy and plodding, completely out of balance with the overall sound. When I mentioned my impressions to the salesperson they agreed and said that some people like them. To each their own I guess!

Pani, I have heard the same thing about ATC speakers. I would like to audition the speakers but I don't know any dealers around me that carry them. Obviously Dynaudio and Harbeth are more popular but I really don't care about that. I just want the best sounding speaker at a reasonable price point. I am happy with the Dyn's but I do believe there are better speakers out there.

I went from Dynaudio C2's to C4's to Harbeth M 40.1's, then to Daedalus Ulysses, now back to Harbeth M-40.1's. I don't see myself going back to Dynaudio as I find them to be too analytical and unnatural sounding for my tastes. The 40.1's just do it for me.

Pani, I understood that you meant sonically, so tell me what specifically about the Offrande Supremes; and what was driving them when you made your assessment?

Pdreher, what kind of electronics were you running with the Dyn's?

I tried Simaudio W6 monoblocks and Plinius SA-102.

With solid state electronics I find Dynaudio analytical to. I run all tube gear with my C-1's and the last thing you would ever say is that they sound analytical or unnatural sounding. Amplification on Dynaudio speakers makes a huge difference. I don't think the Harbeths are that fussy when it comes to electronics. I think the designer of Harbeths says the same thing.

hmm it's happening reading debates here, and finally come to the gear matching point, yes recently I face some problem with Wharfedale Jade 3 too, it sound too analytical to me, compare to Denton 80th Anniversary, it's not very forgiving in playing a lot of my music, so I think is because I'm using too straigthforward gears like JDS Labs ODAC, Class D Audio SDS 400C, it's like full blown sound without filter on the Jade 3, but these gears work on the Denton. I think some people will find Dynaudio sound analytical or thin, free of color if pairs with transparent gears, but neutral sound will sound good if play some state of the art recording, like Mike Oldfield, and most of the mid range voice music, but still I think I prefer a bit light color on the sound, more engaging to listen to, especially on vocal, while most of the background sound I prefer to be a touch wing wing show, not too forward but still able to listen to the details. I think both Dynaudio and JM Reynaud should be compared, we should analyse our own audio chain instead, and decide what to do accordingly?

It's all horses for courses when it comes to listening taste and preferences. The poster of this thread prefers the sound of the Harbeth M30.1 over the Compact 7 and Super HL5 but I find the M30.1 to sound too thick and shut-in for my preference. I prefer the more open and dynamic sound of the C7ES3 and SHL5. To each his own I guess.

The Dynaudio Confidence line of speakers are a lot fussier than the Harbeths as they require more attention in amplification. They are ruthlessly revealing as well. Good music will sound great with the Dynaudios and less-than-perfect recordings will sound bad on them. On the other hand, mediocre to poor music will sound pretty good on the Harbeths.

@Ryder: if a speaker sound too analytical and ruthlessly revealing, any solution to tame those extra details using preamp? Or it would be difficult to find such gear and do the matching? I see Harbeth is very forgiving if you just wanna listen to music, especially a broad range of music genre from your collection

This thread is supposed to be about comparing Harbeth to JM Reynaud. I've owned 3 of the Harbeths (Compact 7's, 30.1s and HL5 pluses) and had the JM Reynaud Bliss Silvers at the same time as the HL5 pluses and frankly there was no comparison. The JM Reynaud is the better speaker in every area at less than half the cost of the Harbeth. The Harbeth is laid back and colored and is a Jekyll and Hyde speaker. Sometimes they sound really good and other times they sound really average. It's happened with all 3 models.

The Reynaud is more present, more realistic in the presentation with more detailed bass and wonderful mids. It's hard to describe the sound of the speaker if you haven't heard it, but it is one of the better speakers under $5k in my opinion. I was so taken with the Bliss Silvers that I traded them toward a pair of the Orfeo Supreme V2 and now I'm in heaven. The Orfeo is a world class speaker and will compete with anything $30k and below. If you're in the market for a Harbeth speaker, you owe it to yourself to listen to JM Reynaud. I've listened to and owned many speakers and the Reynauds are the one I'm going to keep for some time.

10-10-15: Wim1983
@Ryder: if a speaker sound too analytical and ruthlessly revealing, any solution to tame those extra details using preamp? Or it would be difficult to find such gear and do the matching? I see Harbeth is very forgiving if you just wanna listen to music, especially a broad range of music genre from your collection

Usually we build a system around the speakers, but sometimes we do it the other way round in order to make the speakers sound the way we want them to be. In most cases, the room (acoustics) and placement of speakers will bring more tangible difference/improvement than a change in electronics. Having said that, you may consider different amps to tone down the brightness of your Wharfedale Jade 3. I have read the Stereophile review of the Wharfedale Jade 3 and noticed that they used tube amplification to drive the speakers. Audio Research tube power amp and Audio Valve Eclipse tube preamp. The smoothness and warmth from tube amplification may have formed a great combination with the analytical and detailed Jade 3s.

"10-10-15: Wim1983
@Ryder: if a speaker sound too analytical and ruthlessly revealing, any solution to tame those extra details using preamp? Or it would be difficult to find such gear and do the matching?"

If you want to build a system that you're happy with over the long term, that's not a good way to do it. Each component should be able to stand on its own without any help. The last thing you need is to buy a speaker and immediately after, start buying components in an attempt to fix problems. And even is you somehow manage to get it right, it makes upgrades a nightmare.

"Having said that, you may consider different amps to tone down the brightness of your Wharfedale Jade 3. I have read the Stereophile review of the Wharfedale Jade 3 and noticed that they used tube amplification to drive the speakers. Audio Research tube power amp and Audio Valve Eclipse tube preamp. The smoothness and warmth from tube amplification may have formed a great combination with the analytical and detailed Jade 3s."

Buying tubes doesn’t guarantee anything. You can still have the same exact problem with tubes in the chain. If you're looking for a "warm and smooth" sound, you can just as easily get it with solid state.

Looking at the Jade 3 bright/harsh issue, most of the suggested fixes, are in some way looking to cover the problem up, not fix it. Rolling off a speaker with other components does nothing to resolve the underlying issue. Most of the time, problems with high frequencies, comes down to a matter of timber. For example, cymbals don't sound like cymbals, they sound like someone dropped a piece of metal on a concrete floor. The proper fix would be to make the cymbal sound like what its supposed to. Do that, and you'll have a system that plays fully extended highs, without sounding bright/harsh.

Buying tubes doesn’t guarantee anything. You can still have the same exact problem with tubes in the chain. If you're looking for a "warm and smooth" sound, you can just as easily get it with solid state.

Looking at the Jade 3 bright/harsh issue, most of the suggested fixes, are in some way looking to cover the problem up, not fix it. Rolling off a speaker with other components does nothing to resolve the underlying issue. Most of the time, problems with high frequencies, comes down to a matter of timber. For example, cymbals don't sound like cymbals, they sound like someone dropped a piece of metal on a concrete floor. The proper fix would be to make the cymbal sound like what its supposed to. Do that, and you'll have a system that plays fully extended highs, without sounding bright/harsh.

Yes, I agree that getting tube amplification does not guarantee anything, and I am fully aware of that. As a matter of fact, ANY ACTION does not guarantee anything, not even getting new speakers. In the end, it will depend on the listener's expectations in getting the sound that he wants from his system.

For wim1983's case, he can choose to fix the issues of his system in many ways. For me, it would be in the order of the room/speaker placement > speakers > amplification/source > accessories (cables and stuff). Usually there is not much that can be done to the room as most room acoustic products have low WAF which will look out of place in most domestic listening environment. So it's usually down to speaker placement, loudspeakers and then the electronics.

Let's assume wim1983 chooses not to go with tube amps and opts for a new speaker to replace his Jade 3. There is no guarantee that the speakers will work in his room, even if he has listened to them in-store. Having said that, I agree that getting the electronics to "cover up" the problem may not be a permanent fix, but sometimes that can actually be a fix to compensate for the imperfect listening environment/room acoustics. The room itself is the biggest factor that gives coloration to the sound or the system.

In summary, for wim1983's case, if he feels that the sound of the speakers (although bright) is still within the 90% of his ideals, he can still consider to tweak the system to make it work. The caveat is the experiment can turn out to be a costly affair. Otherwise, get a new pair of speakers and start all over - which in turn may not necessarily guarantee 100% satisfaction. In the end, it's all about managing expectations.

You can't fix a high frequency timber problem with room acoustics. I've tried to do this many times. The directionality of the high frequencies just doesn't allow for it. There's a direct line of sight between the ear and the tweeter, and the only way to make any progress, is to change the sound coming out of the drivers themselves.

"Otherwise, get a new pair of speakers and start all over - which in turn may not necessarily guarantee 100% satisfaction. In the end, it's all about managing expectations."

True, but the only way to manage expectations, is to demo equipment before you buy it. Otherwise, its just guessing and hoping for the best.

10-11-15: Zd542
You can't fix a high frequency timber problem with room acoustics. I've tried to do this many times. The directionality of the high frequencies just doesn't allow for it. There's a direct line of sight between the ear and the tweeter, and the only way to make any progress, is to change the sound coming out of the drivers themselves.

True, but the only way to manage expectations, is to demo equipment before you buy it. Otherwise, its just guessing and hoping for the best.

Room acoustics will address most frequencies in the spectrum from high to low. High frequencies are easier to address whereas low frequencies are more difficult as mass/volume is required for absorption. Piercing highs or a bright sound is mainly due to less-than-ideal acoustics of the room (other than bright speakers) caused by reflection of sound waves from hard surfaces. Have you used aftermarket room acoustic products before? I used to have a dedicated room and have tried several acoustic products all over the room (I prefer diffusers more than absorbers, though a combination usually works wonders.)

Demoing equipment in-store and listening to the same system at home will likely(or should I say mostly) produce different results. That is the reason I have mentioned there isn't a 100% guarantee that one will be happy with the results even after a demo session in-store, as the results at home may turn out to be completely different due to the setup of the speakers/equipment and room acoustics. However, it is still a better option than doing without an audition.

Sense63, I found what you said about the J.M. Reynauds interesting. I have a friend that carries them where he works. I have never heard them before but my friend has always told me these speakers sound better than Harbeths at half the price. It must be sort of a secret because Harbeth seems bigger than ever. Now I really want to hear those speakers.

"Room acoustics will address most frequencies in the spectrum from high to low."

I'm talking about what comes out of a loudspeaker, not how loud it is. Altering a frequency that may be too loud is not the same as changing timber. You can't get what's not there to begin with. It has nothing to do with room acoustics.

Taters- I know there is much marketing of the Harbeths in the US vs JM Reynaud. Amherst Audio is the distributor for JMR in the US, but Bob doesn't advertise/market the speakers like Fidelis AV does, hence the much lower price. If you haven't checked out his website, please do. It's extremely informative as Bob has an excellent ear and is gifted at explaining what he hears. (BTW- I have no affiliation with Amherst Audio or JMR.)

I just found the Harbeths lacking and was lucky enough to find Amherst's site to find a speaker that could make up where the Harbeths were short. If you lived in N. Illinois, I'd be happy to let you hear my Orfeos. Maybe there is a dealer near where you live?

Ryder, Zd542: I agree with Zd542 about sound coming out from driver, it just not so easy to tame. Hmm, I dun get it, the Denton and Jade 3 is designed by same person. But the Denton sound very forgiving, although cannot say easy to drive, but works with clean power, while the Jade 3 goes to other end, sound very unforgiving and makes matching harder a lot, does not make sense. While I've heard Harbeth is very forgiving in gear matching, I believe clean power is still needed for better distortions handling. How about the JM Reynaud, are they designed to sound forgiving in a broad range of music?

What do you mean by forgiving in a broad range of music?

@Facten: hmm it really depends how much and what type of recording or music you listen to, there are a lot of less than perfect recording tracks, but you still like it in some ways, so you wanna hear how it sound from a speakers, if the speakers does not cross the borderline, while still able to play back some old classic recording in a pleasant and joyful way, without sacrificing too much details, I will call it forgiving. On the other end, some speakers only able to play back state of the art recording, which you are not able to enjoy more and more music, worst you will hate them eventually. I hope I express my thoughs well?

I find the Offrande Supremes play back the music as it was recorded, they don't color the sound nor make up for recording deficiencies.

My music takes range from smooth/contemporary jazz e.g. Maysa, Anita Baker, Rippingtons, Four Play, Pieces of a Dream etc. ; Rock, from Zepplin, The Who, Clapton, Santana, to Mettalica, Alice in Chains to Depeche Mode, Prentenders , Elvis Costello etc; R&B/Soul from oldies like the Dramatics, Temptations, Isley Brothers, to Kem etc. I don't find these speakers partial to one genre or another, it plays them all equally well with a combination of authority and aplomb

Another vote for Reynaud here. I've owned Twin Signatures, Cantabile Supremes, and Offrandes Supreme V2s. On the Harbeth side I've owned SHL5s and 30.1s. Both of which left my house within a few months. Twice I went to Harbeth's in between Reynauds, because of so much hype, and twice I was disappointed. I truly wanted to love Harbeth's. Still I'd call them excellent speakers, and had I never heard Reynaud maybe I would have kept them, but that wasn't the case. To me Reynauds cut to the heart of the music, they transfer what's on the recording to a musical experience. Harbeth's make a beautiful, though somewhat boring sound. But because you heard and loved 30.1s I wouldn't feel comfortable guaranteeing you'd prefer Reynauds, they're different enough that you simply must hear them.

"10-12-15: Wim1983
Ryder, Zd542: I agree with Zd542 about sound coming out from driver, it just not so easy to tame. Hmm, I dun get it, the Denton and Jade 3 is designed by same person. But the Denton sound very forgiving, although cannot say easy to drive, but works with clean power, while the Jade 3 goes to other end, sound very unforgiving and makes matching harder a lot, does not make sense. While I've heard Harbeth is very forgiving in gear matching, I believe clean power is still needed for better distortions handling. How about the JM Reynaud, are they designed to sound forgiving in a broad range of music?"

I may have answered at least part of this in the other thread you were posting in, but maybe I can give some more info here. When you talk about how a speaker is meant to sound, and are surprised to find out that 2 speakers designed by the same person can sound very different, its very hard to put this into context without actually listening. High end speakers and components are not meant to be bought without some type of demo. There can be many legitimate reasons why a designer may make different sounding speakers. To get the system that's right for you, you have to put the time and effort into it. Its not always easy, but that's just the way it is.

Let me give you an example from a speaker designers perspective. Looking at the situation from a different perspective may be helpful. My favorite speaker, and a company I know very well is Vandersteen. Before I start, I'm not trying to sell you on this brand, I'm just using them as an example because I've been dealing with them for a long time and know a lot about them.

Vandersteen understands what it is that you are going through as a person trying to trying to buy the right speaker. Like many other good brands, they know it can be very difficult, and they take steps to make the process as easy as they can for potential buyers. If you think about it, its the same type of problem, just in reverse. The consumer needs to buy the right speaker to be happy, and the speaker manufacturer needs to sell speakers to people who will be happy with them. The way they do this is to let only the best qualified retailers sell their speakers. Vandersteen is extremely picky about who they let sell their products. If they can't find a dealer that meets their high standards in any particular area, they choose not to sell their product there. They won't compromise. If you go to their web site and look at their dealer list here in the US, you'll see that they don't have at least 1 dealer in many of our 50 states. Its not even close. They need dealers that know how to set the speakers up, match them with the best components, actually carry the best components in their store and have an extremely good reputation in the audiophile community. If a store doesn't have all that, he won't even consider letting them become a dealer. What I'm getting at with all this, is to show how important, and difficult it can be, to make the right choices. And the better manufacturers know this, and do as much as they can to make sure their products get sold to the people that should by buying them.

I hope this info helps. Its unfortunate, but the magazines never talk about stuff like this. As a result, so many new people don't get the results they expect, and end up walking away from audio in frustration.

@Jtnicolosi: What's missing in Harbeth? Is it the bass impact? I will be very hard to believe if those Harbeth does not sound good in most of all especially in vocal.

Wim1983: simply put Harbeths don't draw me into the music like Reynauds do. The issue with the 30.1's had nothing to do with bass, I simply didn't connect with them. After all the whole point of this entire hobby is to be emotionally moved by music isn't it? Admitidly this is all rather unscientific, which is why I only speak for myself, but since others who have gone from Harbeth to Reynaud have felt the same way, I'd say objectively as possible that they are the more engaging speaker. If you want reserved and "neutral", Harbeth would be the right pick.

@Jtnicolosi: It seem it is more musical color on Reynauds than Harbeth, the 30.1 monitor flat, colorless, neutral and transparency could be a bit too much, which happen to be too analytical and clinical I suppose?

Interesting thread. There is review of the JMR Twin and Cantabile in Positive-feedback issue 25. It's the same review, both speakers.... The reviewer compares the JMR's to the Compact 7ES in the review. I only say this based on specs, but perhaps the JMR is also a more tube friendly speaker.

Wim 1983,

I have never heard Harbeth speakers described as analytical or clinical. That has to be a first.

I own a pair of Reynaud Bliss Silvers with Magic Stands.

Warm, fast, and detailed in one package, which is difficult to achieve.

They should be more popular, but are rarely at audio shows and only a handful of dealers in the US.

@Taters: hmm, it could be due to a lot factors, monitor exist for a reason, that is people need to hear everything in recording. I dun think every model of Harbeth sound the same, which eventually result in different user choice, having say that the sound that make a user think it already cross the red borderline, is no standard measure, even sound slightly bright treble, could lead to user irritations. The larger the music collections you listen to, it's harder to get a speakers to present those music that pleasure in every way. I think both Harbeth and JM Reynaud got their own weaknesses, just that whether the listneners are able to accept

Irish- may I ask what you are using to drive your Bliss Silvers?

I am using Quicksilver Mid Monos.

Quicksilver amps are very hard to beat for the money. Always enjoyed their sound. Bet they sound great driving the Bliss Silvers. Sounds like a well thought out system.
Cheers and enjoy!

I have owned both Spendors and JMR speakers. I've never owned Harbeths.
I traded in my Spendors after a few years because I found the sound a little boring.
The JMReynaud speakers - I've owned both floor standers and monitors - are much more dynamic and exciting. They have an amazing midrange and a very sweet high frequency range. They are not harsh or over analytic and are on the warm and rich side of the spectrum. I've auditioned similarly priced speakers in my home - Totems, NOLAs, Regas - no comparison. The JMRs are in another league and make beautiful beautiful music.

I've owned both Harbeth and Reynaud, and was unable to get the Offrande Supreme V2 to sound it's best with the rest of my system in my room. I really enjoyed their lively sonic signature, but there was a noticeable midbass suckout that left the music sounding pretty thin. Was advised by Bob Neill (thanks Bob) that I needed an amp with "oompf" to drive them properly. Bought a beefy Karan KAI-180 MKII integrated to drive them, and it helped some, but didn't completely solve the problem.

I've owned both the Harbeth Monitor 30.1 and Compact 7ES3, and they perform much better (to my ears) in my acoustically imperfect space.

FYI, I've owned Proacs, Sonus Fabers, etc. and have never experienced the same issue. Your mileage may vary with your gear in your room.

Thanks to all who have provided their thoughts and suggestions. I thought I would update folks on where I am in my speaker upgrade process. An Audiogon member kindly invited me over to hear his big Reynauds to give me a feel for the JMR sound. They sounded very nice, but no enough to convince me that the smaller JMRs would be better than the Harbeths. However, he also had on hand a pair of Omega Super Alnico Monitors, which when he played them for me I could not believe how wonderful they sounded. As a consequence, I ordered a pair for a 30-day at home audition (which is something not doable with Reynaud). I am expecting delivery at the end of next week and am looking forward to what they will sound like in my home. The Harbeths are still in my mix, but if the Omega's sound as good for me at home as they did at someone else's place, it will be hard not keep them and save a couple thousand $ that I can use for music! If they don't do it for me, I simply return them and just pay for return shipping, and move on to getting the Harbeths. I will let everyone know how my at home audition goes as well as my final decision.