Back in the late 90s (eons ago) I tried a variety of passive preamps (PPs). The most musical was an autoformer, but back then my system was not balanced. For the last decade I have been using active preamps, both tube and solid state, but finding a quality balanced preamp under $4K is damn near impossible. Enter the Parasound P5 (2.1), which in addition to having balanced I/Os, it has a separate bass management circuit (MSRP $1095), and I was hoping it would provide better control over the built in class D plates incorporated into my 2 SVS powered subs, whose volume controls are STUPIDLY sensitive: when barely cracked from zero they overwhelm. Alas, no bueno.
Recently i watched a PS Audio YT video that was emphatic about NOT connecting powered subs with interconnects; instead he recommends speaker cables piggybacked off the main systems amp/s. I had a spare set of DIY flat copper cables, and was shocked how much better they sounded, but doing so did not change the volume control problem and unfortunately this id not bypass the SVS amps whose class D chips are now ancient. Thinking there could be an impedance problem led me to revisit PPs.
I sold my P5 and was using the XLR outs from my Oppo 105 (upgraded power supply and IEC/wiring to the power supply) direct to my Emerald Physics 100.2SEs (class D). The noise floor dropped tremendously, allowing me a much better view into the music. My Core Power Technologies 1800 PLC had more than a little to do with this, but...
Days of PP research later, I came across LDRs, which seem like the ultimate PP option, but XLR versions are ~ $2K and up, with the Tortuga coming in at $2700, seems like a true SOTA bargain, just not in my current budget. Scouring the' for sale' sites I came across a Hattor XLR (MSRP $995) which was in my price range. Hattor's www had links to 2 reviews both were extremely positive: one used it in combination with a class D amp. Bingo! I snapped it up.
It arrived late yesterday, although Hattor's www pictures look awesome, they do not compare to seeing and touching it. The metal carrying case was an indication of the designer's dedication. This is an etremely well made piece of kit, but how does it sound? Alas it came with no manual and Hattor's site does not have a PDF. How hard can it be to hook up? Well, after a couple scary minutes, I discovered that it would not light up until I connected the 105.
Stone cold, the first thing that shocked me was a further reduction in noise floor and an incredibly wide and deep sound stage, but as can be expected, it was dry. Fingers crossed, in about a half hour I began to be rewarded with texture as well. Tis only got better as the night wore on
I hope somebody chimes in with their Tortuga experience, or any other high quality PP information.that goes under the reporting radar.
The P5 is a seriously over priced preamp, and not nearly the value of the P7.
I wonder how much of what you are hearing is just how much better op amps and output stages are now? That is, I don't think you are hearing passive preamps get much better, but you are hearing the electronics in source devices get much much better.
The Mytek Brooklyn DAC for instance has an absolutely marvelous output stage, and is a solution I can heartily recommend for anyone wanting to go without a pre. Best, E
Now that Ive heard the Hattor warmed up, I agree totally that the P 5 is way overpriced, but it s price includes dealer margins: the Hattor does not, so while they are virtually the same MSRP, the Hattor has no frills and significantly better parts (and fewer parts): its no contest sonically
I agree totally that the P 5 is way overpriced, but it s price includes dealer margins
I meant that relative to other active pres. The P7 also includes dealer margins but it is a great value. By value I mean price vs. performance. You get much more per dollar than with the P5. My point was, of the Parasound pres you could have listened to, you listened to the worst of them.
The P7 and JC1 are far far better pres to consider as state of the art vs. a passive.
"but finding a quality balanced preamp under $4K is damn near impossible" TO build a really good, really good balanced preamp for $4K would be a challenge IMO. I would have to use customer transformers and they alone cost me about $800. Happy Listening.
I've owned a Tortuga PP. It was very good in many aspects. However, for me, it lacked "soul" (the ability to emotionally connect) In the end I prefer a tube active preamp. And 6sn7 based at that. But that;s the beauty of this hobby, there is something available for everyone.
Passive preamps are seductively transparent. They seem like qualified components in a dealer showroom. But living with them for longer periods can be tiring. The PPs suck dry musical dynamics, timing and related details. When compared side-by-side to a competent active preamp, especially better tube preamps, high frequency details, musical timing, transients, dynamic contrasts and snap are clearly superior. With all that extra detail comes improved imaging, layering and soundstage definition.
The PPs suck dry musical dynamics, timing and related details.
That could be true if you weren’t impedance matched. An active preamp can’t "make" these out of thin air, compared to a "impedance matched" passive preamp, it's already there in the music that comes from the source. Remember what Nelson Pass says about passive preamps
Remember what Nelson Pass says about passive preamps
"What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."
you may be confused as to which Parasound is the worst. My first was the P 3: the P5 was clearly way above it, but nothing like the Hattor. From there, the only 2 channel upgrade would be the JC 2 @ $4K well out of my budget, even used
We tend to expect one thnew thing to make our systems sing, when seldom will it work that way
As to dryness, etc I find the opposite of bpoletti's comments. at least with the Hattor, which puts everything into fine focus with great speed, and timing. What IT is doing is ruthlessly exposing everything else, including the recordings. On many CDs, some songs are well recorded while others are downright awful.
Jadedavid: The lack of soul was likely elsewhere (see my opening comment)
When I initially connected the H, I used a $100 Cullen PC, and PS Audio XLRs. The next afternoon, I replaced the Cullen with a $300 WireWorld PC and Surf Cables XLRs (absolute bargain) , the sound immediately warmed up (instruments and voices much fuller bodied, and the music now has 'more' texture.
I believe my lowest common denominators now are
1. My Emerald Physics 100.2 SEs (probably 2-3 generations old class D) 2. My Oppo 105
The amps will be the first to be replaced with a Nord stereo amp
I considered the $2K++ W4S STP SE, but IMO it's butt ugly, with a tiny view screen. Very poor design, especially for the money
Another thing I did after IC and PC swap was to raise both the H and its power supply up on Machina Dynamica springs. Anther positive step that was instantly heard. These inexpensive iso/vib control devices are the real deal
I feel like people are going to get the wrong impression of the P 5. First of all, it’s not the lowest in Parasound’s lineup, that would be from their mini Z Custom line. Next up is the Classic 2100 pre. Then, sitting at the mid way point is the Halo P5. Eric, I don’t know if you have owned either the P5 or P7, but I have owned both. The P5 provided imaging that had a solid depth to it with good source material. Yes it’s solidly in the mid fi camp, but it was far better than the Nad C375BEE if comparing pre section to pre. The
the P7 never gave me that 3D imaging, mind you that was back when I believed the nonsense that cables don’t make a difference. I also never got strong bass presence with the P7 for some reason, and I can’t allow myself to blame the amp I had at the time, the A21.
Maybe I’m out to lunch, but I have respect for what the P5 did for me.
213runnin. I started with the P 3 > then the P5 2.1 for the separate bass management circuit, which apparently does not interface with powered subs inputs. My plan all along was to eventually own a JC 2, but I could never put together enough money, even for the rare used one. after selling the P 5 I had to use my Oppo 105 direct outs to my amps, and began to see how colored the P 5 was. The light went off, so I revisited passives.
I owned several passives some 15 years ago, but they didn't do it for me. But like class D amps, passives have come a long long way. The Hattor is a case in point. Pure dual mono XLR MSRP $995!
I did not experience a lack of PRAT. Morelike it was a lack of harmonic structures. Tubes typically add the odd order harmonics giving more of a sense of a wholeness to the musical presentation. The Tortuga did not present a full acoustical envelope. You asked for opinions on the Tortuga. This was mine. Equipment used was a Lampizator DAC, Coincident 300B amps, Purist cables and Audiokinesis Zephrin speakers YMMV
after selling the P 5 I had to use my Oppo 105 direct outs to my amps, and began to see how colored the P 5 was. The light went off, so I revisited passives.
You are not wrong, but this is unique to the P5! :) The P7 is much more transparent. It is not perfect. My Mytek Brooklyn is better direct to the amplifiers. But the P7 is a great compromise between 2 channel and multi-channel.
Tweak, it sounds like you are getting to the kind of sound you’re after and that’s a win in my book!
The Hattor has looks that are a little off putting for me. A lot of good audio products are coming out of Eastern Europe these days.
I would say the P5 does warm up the sound a little, and that’s exactly what I was after with my bright speakers and somewhat forward amp. The synergy of my system was impressive, but I find passive preamps to be somewhat boring.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there is no accounting for taste, and YMMV!
These are two Hattor’s. Passive, which I believe you have, which what looks to be Kozmho switched volume control, which I believe is a fixed series resistor and variable ones to ground, which will vary it’s i/o impedance’s at different volume levels, best to me is ladder ones, where the series and shunt resistors work in opposites to each other to give a more constant I/O impedance https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145833.0
Its an active (buffered) control. Shouldn't this thread have a different title?
"What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these
simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of
capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”,
is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe
they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control
up compared to an active preamp."
George always leaves out the rest of Nelson's words, as if they don't exist. Here they are, as you can see Nelson does not think passives are the last word by any means:
I suppose if I had to floor the accelerator to drive 55 mph, maybe I’d
think the life was being sucked out of my driving. Then again, maybe I
like 55. Nice and safe, good gas mileage…
Is impedance matching an issue? Passive volume controls do have to make
a trade-off between input impedance and output impedance. If the input
impedance is high, making the input to the volume control easy for the
source to drive, then the output impedance is also high, possibly
creating difficulty with the input impedance of the power amplifier. And
vice versa: If your amplifier prefers low source impedance, then your
signal source might have to look at low impedance in the volume control.
This suggests the possibility of using a high quality buffer in
conjunction with a volume control. A buffer is still an active circuit
using tubes or transistors, but it has no voltage gain – it only interposes itself to
make a low impedance into a high impedance, or vice versa.
If you put a buffer in front of a volume control, the control’s low
impedance looks like high impedance. If you put a buffer after a volume
control, it makes the output impedance much lower. You can put buffers
before and after a volume control if you want.
The thing here is to try to make a buffer that is very neutral. Given
the simple task, it’s pretty easy to construct simple buffers with very
low distortion and noise and very wide bandwidth, all without negative
feedback.
There are lots of different possibilities for buffers, but we are going to pick my favorite:
Question is not which pre-amp but why there is floor noise: a) bad or wrong wiring? b) one element Is damaged.
so to rebuilt piece by piece the system and everything will go in the right way. Could be the pre-amp but also something else.
Personally i I use an “AM Audio PRE 04F”.. pure art of electronic building. No noise, no distortion, no bass nor high adjustments.. just volume and selector knobs... price below 2k . regards
George always leaves out the rest of Nelson's words
Because 90% of systems are a great match for passives, and are the most dynamic /transparent way of getting the source to the amp except for going direct if you can do it without "bit stripping". Here's Wadia take on going direct and Mark Levinson does the same. https://ibb.co/kc4OCo
Because 90% of systems are a great match for passives, and are the most
dynamic /transparent way of getting the source to the amp except for
going direct if you can do it without "bit stripping".
While the first half of this is false, I do agree that bit stripping is not a good way to do a volume control. You don't want to lose resolution when turning down the volume.
@ tweak1 yes. Modern gears should have not such kind of noise, especially If balanced. Could be exception with phono when good cartridge and wiring are very “sensitive” to any kind of noise. It is importsnt also to ensure correct impedance matching between gears and accurate wiring. Let’s start with only pre-amplifier and amplifier ... are they from same brand ? There are quality cables ? There is noise in the loudspeakers? If I there is low “pink noise” we could accept but with volume knob between 3/4 and 4/4. If there is a monotone noise we have a problem. Then connect one gear for time and verify. Once again only exception could be the phono (at reasonable level).
@georgehifi You're over here totally mischaracterizing Pass too? Do I need to quote and cite the article for his active pre-amp that you're cherry picking his words from? And why can't you understand impedance isn't the only factor? Why do you keep selling the myth 90% of system only need a passive? If it was true, they'd be in 90% of systems. They obviously aren't! Just give it up!
Passive preamps are coming of age, not because of themselves, but because the sources today can do the job 90% of the time without the need of active preamps, and in many cases better, in some cases without the need of passives also if the source has it’s own volume control, which is becoming more and more the norm.
I see active expensive pre’s as a bit of a dinosaur slowly becoming extinct, far cheaper more transparent/dynamic passives as an interim move, before all sources have their own volume control. But switching between sources will have to be worked out, but you definitely don’t need a mega dollar preamp to do a source switching job, a $100 dollar switch box can do that.
One way to find out which you like better (i.e., pure passive or passive with an active buffer circuit) would be to purchase the Hattor or Tortuga passive and then add their buffer. Tortuga offers a 30-day return policy in the event you like the sound better without the buffer.
@georgehifi Nonsense. Active pre-amps aren't going anywhere. They're an unusual fetish that'll never become mainstream because of their unavoidable failings. 5000 ohm of impedance to the input of 90% of amps is never going to sound as good as 50 ohm.
@georgehifi I believe facts. Facts like Nelson Pass explaining the superiority of a buffer to a passive. Facts like measured performance. Facts like subjective performance. Facts like the rarity of passives.
A couple of things. Looking around, more and more integrated amps, and similar products, are bypassing having a preamp section altogether, taking the source and switching, only, into the amp stage. My top of the line Sony cd player, many years ago, mention in the owners manual, to go from the variable out, into the power amp. This " passive " thing is not new, and it is gaining momentum each day. About a week ago, I decided to bypass my preamp and come straight out of my fixed level dac, and specifically used a lower wattage, pro Yamaha amp, with it"s input level controls. Using my Sheffield Labs Drum Record, I so much prefer no preamp. I am currently shopping for a passive, with multiple inputs, as the amp I would like to use is very high gain ( it was designed to be used with the source voltage driving it ). It is likely I will never use a preamp again. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
I so much prefer no preamp.
I am currently shopping for a passive, with multiple inputs, as the amp I would like to use is very high gain ( it was designed to be used with the source voltage driving it ). It is likely I will never use a preamp again. Enjoy ! MrD.
MrD you want a 10kohm passive, as that will serve most situations, as most s/s sources can drive 10kohm no problems, and a 10kohm pot has at worst around 2.5kohm output which will drive almost all poweramps >33kohm input.
1: For the cheapest option, you could go Schiit Sys, for $49 it’s 10kohm with 2 inputs one output. http://www.schiit.com/products/sys 2: Then there the Saga which is 10kohm passive with a better relay pot and it has output tube output select’able if desired 5 inputs two outputs. http://www.schiit.com/products/saga 3: There are a few LDR some passive including mine which mimics a 10kohm pot.
using active or passive PP is definitely a personal choice basis on own sensibility and perceptions. Anyway PP should be simple, minimalist, few components but highly selected, maching and quality, good pcb, psu, connectors, knobs, selectors... if possible non condensers into the routing of music. As said in other forum, “PP, like a good steward, shall just manage the inputs and main volume, normalize in and out impedances and gain between inputs, nothing else, bringing the music “as it is” from source to the amplifier “. In this philosophy PP should be reasonably expensive but not exaggerating being more expensive than a more complex source or amplifier... all the rest are reclame and business for peoples abusing of our enthusiasm. I prefer active PP because never should be lack of “food” to the amplifier, especially when sound is so dinamic. Have a pleasant sound session, regards
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